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Author Topic:   Discussing the evidence that support creationism
jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 4 of 301 (433592)
11-12-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 3:47 PM


You need to understand what you are supposed to be doing.
Before you go too much further, I think you need to review How can "Creationism" be supported?. So far what you have presented (all any Creationist has ever been able to present) has nothing to do with supporting Creationism.

I would love to see someone present a model that supported Creationism, but unfortunately, no one has ever been able to do so.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 3:47 PM Aquilegia753 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 32 of 301 (433668)
11-12-2007 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 6:01 PM


Still simply strawmen and falsehoods.
However, I am saying that it's foolish to say that life could only exist on earth.

Since no one here has said that, it is a non-issue. What can be said is that the only sample of life we have available to study is here on earth and guess what, it happens to be carbon based.

Carbon-based life can only exist on earth, but not all life has to be carbon-based.

Sorry, but say what? Why can carbon-based life exist only here on earth?

And you still need to supply support for Creationism.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 6:01 PM Aquilegia753 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 34 of 301 (433672)
11-12-2007 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 6:36 PM


Re: why this still isn't evidence for young creation
Let me also step in with one thing you should know.

You appear to be a Christian. Please understand this is not an issue of Christianity vs atheistic ideas. Almost all Christian sects accept the old universe, the Theory of Evolution and reject Biblical Creationism as the joke it is.

As stated by the Clergy Project Letter, currently signed and endorsed by over 11,000 US Christian Clergy:

We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 6:36 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 6:50 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 37 of 301 (433676)
11-12-2007 6:50 PM


Gish Gallop alert
Is it time to set up a mentor session for Aquilegia753 wher (s)he can move slowly through all of these PRATTs with just one person?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 40 of 301 (433679)
11-12-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 6:50 PM


Re: why this still isn't evidence for young creation
I never denied the 'old universe' theory. I actually strongly believe that God made all things mature. In doing that, he could have created a 'mature' universe. The rocks could appear to be billions of years old, but really be much younger. Adam could've appeared to have been 30, when he was not a day old.

Only if God is a liar and a cheat, a trickster, Loki.

If God created everything with the appearance of age, She could well have done it two seconds ago.

What you propose is God the Liar, certainly a possibility, but something which can never be tested.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 6:50 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 7:17 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 49 of 301 (433700)
11-12-2007 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 7:17 PM


Re: why this still isn't evidence for young creation
I WILL NOT STAND FOR YOU TO CALL MY CREATOR A LIER!

Not Lier, LIAR!

Sorry, you created her. Not my fault you presented a Liar.

But that is what you presented, a Goddlet that creates stuff that looks old.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 7:17 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 9:04 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 68 of 301 (433750)
11-12-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 8:14 PM


Still a falsehood.
In answer to your question, creationism must be true simply because if it isn't, then the Bible could be counted false (if this is false, why can't that be too?), and if the Bible is false, then we have no hope of salvation. If I have no hope of salvation, then what's the point of life?

Sorry but that is simply more of the false dichotomies that the Biblical Creationists use to scare you.

Remember the Clergy Project Letter.

All of the Clergy that signed it believe in the Bible. They believe in salvation.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 8:14 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 79 of 301 (433770)
11-12-2007 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 9:04 PM


Re: why this still isn't evidence for young creation
No human could ever invent the idea of my God.

But you have presented the little god you created, one that lies and falsifies data. Frankly, the god you describe would get fired in any lab in the world; could not live under the ethics required of any scientist.

The topic though is "Discussing the evidence that support creationism", yet you have presented nothing in the form of evidence that supports creationism.

Slow down.

If you believe that Creationism can be supported, then you need to present the best case you can muster in support of that position.

Proving the conventional model wrong will not help you; that does not provide support for creationism.

There is one serious problem you will face. If you wish to introduce God as a factor, then you need to place God on exhibit so that God can be tested just as any other piece of evidence. If you do not place God on the table, then you are left with the same tools folk have been using.

In either case, what you need is a model that explains what is seen even better than the conventional model.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 9:04 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 9:41 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 85 of 301 (433784)
11-12-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 9:41 PM


Re: why this still isn't evidence for young creation
"Do not test the Lord your God..." Deut. 6:16.

That is called a Special Pleading.

The truth is, I can't prove that Creation happened. I can't prove anything in the Bible is true.

However we can show with a very high degree of confidence that many things in the Bible, the Flood, the Exodus, the Conquest of Cannan did not happen.

Nobody can prove anything happened billions, millions, or even tens of thousands of years ago.

Nonsense.

We can't because we weren't there.

Irrelevant. We do not need to have been there, just as I do not need to have been there to know that you actually had a Great-great-great-great-grandfather.

Evolutionists believe that we evolved from a differant species just as much as creationists believe we were created.

Sorry but that is just another of the lies you have been taught. People accept evolution because that is what the evidence shows. It is NOT a matter of belief.

To put it truthfully, I had made this topic to 'Dicuss' the evidence that 'supports' creationism, not proves it.

Fine, present the evidence. Just remember if you wish to insert god, be prepared to place god on the table to be examined.

If you can support Creationism, then please present the model that explains what is seen.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 9:41 PM Aquilegia753 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 10:06 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 95 of 301 (433802)
11-12-2007 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Aquilegia753
11-12-2007 10:06 PM


A few more basics
In science, fact simply means something that is known to such a high degree of confidence that it is as close to certainty as possible. Evolution falls in that class.

Also, why is it nonesense that nobody can prove what happened billions, millions, or even ten thousand years ago? Please elaborate.

Because things that happen leave evidence. that is why I can say with a high degree of confidence, even state it as fact, that you had a great-great-great-great-great-grandfather even though I was not there. You exist therefore the likelihood that you had ancestors is pretty certain.

We can also see evidence, even evidence from millions and billions of years ago. It was that overwhelming body of evidence that caused the idea of a young earth to be discarded over 100 years ago.

Now if you think that Creationism can be supported, all you need to do is present the models that explain the evidence. We have many threads here at EvC where that can be done.

We have one looking at the Grand Canyon from the bottom up, another looking for a Creationist explanation for sand, another looking for Creationist explanations of Salt beds and domes, another looking for Creationist explanations for angular nonconformities, another trying to explain how the stars seen might fit in a young universe.

It is not for want of looking, the fact is, Creationists have never been able to explain the evidence seen.

Maybe you can be a first?

AbE:

Again, and please understand that I am speaking to you as a very devout Christian who is deeply involved in Christianity, the church and Christian education, who grew up learning about the old universe and evolution in a Christian Church School, you are being presented false dichotomies.

Science simply teaches us "How God Did IT'"

Let me point you to yet more sources, A Catechism of Creation

and

Christianity and science – are they contradictory?

and

Radiometric Dating A Christian Perspective

Edited by jar, : add sources


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Aquilegia753, posted 11-12-2007 10:06 PM Aquilegia753 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 176 of 301 (442801)
12-22-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Aquilegia753
12-22-2007 5:19 PM


Re: We do not argue with links
That is called "incredulity" and with a buck and a half might get you a cuppa joe.

The Topic happens to be "Discussing the evidence that support creationism" in case you missed it, and your personal disbelieve in evolution is not just off topic, it adds no support to Creationism.

Perhaps it would help you if you studied Message 1. Until you read it and understand it it is unlikely you will learn how or be able to present some evidence that might support creationism.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Aquilegia753, posted 12-22-2007 5:19 PM Aquilegia753 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 187 of 301 (442841)
12-22-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Cold Foreign Object
12-22-2007 7:02 PM


Evidence and Creationism in the same sentence?
Could you please show us where Aquilegia or any Creationist came to this Forum to learn?

There is no indication so far that Creationists can learn.

Could you please also show us where any Evolutionist was recognized as a teacher and accepted in that role by any Creationist?

Nope.

Creationists come to EvC Forum to evidence Creationism and show the falsity of Evolutionism.

If that is the case, why do they never bring any evidence?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 192 of 301 (442850)
12-22-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object
12-22-2007 7:47 PM


Re: A new, all-time low for Ray
Ah, Ray, you've been here long enough to know we don't play dueling websites.

The topic, in case you missed it, is "Discussing the evidence that support creationism".

Do you ever expect to actually present something on topic?


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-22-2007 7:47 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-23-2007 5:10 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 202 of 301 (443066)
12-23-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Cold Foreign Object
12-23-2007 5:10 PM


Re: A new, all-time low for Ray
Okay, let's start with reality: the observation of design seen abundantly in nature and organisms.

Sorry but you have never presented any evidence of design, only the assertion (unsupported) of the appearance of design.

design indicates Designer = evidence supporting Creationism based on observation, which is the cornerstone of science.

Sorry but that is simply assertion piled on assertion.

Thanks for playing.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 223 of 301 (443478)
12-25-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Buzsaw
12-25-2007 9:30 AM


Please present evidence that supports Biblical Creation
Time to step up to the plate.

Do you have even one single piece of evidence that supports Biblical Creation?


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 9:30 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

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