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Author Topic:   Best approaches to deal w/ fundamentalism
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 50 of 142 (500863)
03-02-2009 6:40 PM


My two-cents...
Great discussion topic! I have spent some time on this issue and have done a fair number of public evolution seminars to counter creation talks in town. Here are some thoughts/musings on this:
I am firmly convinced that Bob Altemeyer's RWA scale explains a lot about the fundamentalist mindset, especially his work with logic problems. If not familiar, he found a correlation between high RWA's (of which most fundies are) and an inability to recognize flawed logic if they agreed with the conclusion. So they tended to claim a syllogism is logical if they believed the conclusion, no matter if one or more supporting statements were false.
Reading this study was enlightening to me because, if true at least part of the time, it explains the head-against-the-wall frustration level when we go around and around in circles making a series of arguments only to have the recipient hand wave it all away and return to the original claim as if it were bullet-proof. The point is that the steps we use to convince our peers of a certain viewpoint will not work with some people. What has to happen is to construct a bridge between their conclusion and another conclusion.
For example, instead of trying to tear down young Earth creationism directly try building a case for OEC or theistic evolution (I don't mean you need to believe this, I mean make a case that many strong Christians accept this without compromising their faith). The 'baby-steps' approach. The cases I have seen here and elsewhere where change occurred this seemed to be how it happened.
Another tactic I have had success with (and it's a toughie) is to be really familiar with their case. Even though I may not 'win' the argument, I feel a whole better when I frustrate a fundie by knowing their sources better than they do. In my experience many seem to believe that the rest of humanity is as gullible as they are, so are caught off-guard when you not only know the source but know when and how it was refuted.
I also make it a point to obtain the primary sources used by creationists, as it is guaranteed that the person you are arguing with has never even read the abstract. It maybe cruel, but I love the look on their face as they are trying to make a claim while knowing that you are holding the actual paper they are citing. Especially when you hand it to them and ask them to show you where the authors said that. I had the pleasure of derailing a claim about intact dinosaur marrow and blood cells by Dave Nutting by asking him to show me where in the paper he cites is this claim (I brought it with me). All he admitted was that he might have put the wrong citation down, but hopefully it was not lost on the audience.
It is also really useful to be familiar with older creationist literature. I purchased and read a creation science book (Science and the Bible by Herbert Walker Morris) from 1871. As far as I can tell it is the oldest creation book that was written to directly counter Darwin. But what I like about is that he uses statements like "Every thinking person knows that earth is millions of years if not millions or eras old". Many creationists are unaware that OEC lies at the trunk of their belief system. Morris (HW, not Henry or John) uses the fact that theologians discovered and named the geologic eras to proclaim an old earth as validating the Bible (somewhat ridiculous logic, but there is an irony there).
Perhaps the hardest thing to do (especially with the creation discussion) is to keep civil and rational. This is one I am working on myself. I have found that they often come with a preconceived idea of how 'evilutionists' are going to respond to them. And, imo, that response only confirms that they are right regardless of the argument. Genuinely acknowledging and empathizing with their belief (while gently countering) avoids the "You just think I'm stupid" conversation stopper. One thing to keep in mind, at least with Christian fundamentalists, is that they are told that if they are despised it is only because they are right.
Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Altemeyer's introductory book on RWA:
The Authoritarians

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by anglagard, posted 03-07-2009 1:45 AM Lithodid-Man has replied
 Message 94 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2009 10:48 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 93 of 142 (501616)
03-07-2009 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by anglagard
03-07-2009 1:45 AM


Re: My two-cents...
Thanks, Anglagard
I have referred Altemeyer's work to several conservatives and fundamentalists on several discussion boards, local newspaper blogs, as well as people in 'real life' and have gotten the same response. They will not read it or take the test because it is biased and flawed and liberal.
They are unable to see that the test is really about submission to authority, not about current political belief. A hardcore fundamentalist Christian in America could score the same as a hardcore atheist communist in China.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by anglagard, posted 03-07-2009 1:45 AM anglagard has not replied

  
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