accelerating/expanding universe - god?

The Word the Christian use to describe the "Royal We" is The Trinity.Its obvious that the Muslims too believe in the Trinity and thus should have no beef with the Lord Jesus Christ being an equal member of the Royal "We". How does triangulation of the galaxies speed in violation of lights speed limit not violate Relativity. If mass is spreading apart greater than lights speed then the speed limit of light then some force you call Dark Energy is spreading the universe.The Muslims are in agreement with the Christians that the God head (the Royal We) is responsible.Gods response in the book of Job in essense is saying that he is able to loosen these forces. kjv Job 38:31 says: canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion. kjv job 38:31-33 Can you loosen the forces of the stars can you direct their paths, the Word says that God can and does, etc...The verses in the Quran says basically the Royal "We" is expanding the heavens steadily (CC). Does not the Cosmic Constant show the universe is a steady factor in respect to the expansion. The Royal "We" stated within the Quran and the Christians in respect to the Trinity.Muhammad was a man not of the Royal "WE" but Jesus Christ is an equal member of the Royal "We" (true light of true light of true light) and thru him was the universe made and is expanding steadily (CC).The thread in post 1 asks the question should one become religious. The Answer is YES to the Christian Religion and No to the Muslim religion because muhammad is not of the Royal "We" but Jesus Christ Is of the Royal "We".When one becomes a Christian you are one with the Royal "We" thru Christ which trumps all other religions. All things were made thru Christ and only thru him can one be one with the Royal We. Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

Have you even read the Qur'an? As I said. The Qur'an thoroughly rejects the Trinity. Relativity has no problems with space expanding at such a rate so as to have two masses appearing to travel away from one another faster than light. It actually states this is perfectly possible. Inflationary cosmology states that the universe expanded massively rapidly (much faster than today, and many many times faster than light) around the era of the big bang. As long as the galaxy is not travelling faster than light relative to local space there is no actual problem.I cited a source for my positions on Cosmology. Do you have any sources from current reputable cosmologists that say that rapid space expansion is problematic for relativity? Not all Muslims nor all Christians (at least not directly). So one should become a Christian because its dogma includes the Trinity? Sounds like a circular reason to me.

At least some are seeing the truth in respect to the Lord Jesus Christ and his oneness with the We in the Quran in respect to the godhead that is responsible for the steadily expansion of the universe. Sounds like you found a contradiction within the Quran(4.171).These later words within the Quran contradicts the earlier Qurans Words that the Godhead is expressed as more than one person (The Royal "We").The muslims should all become Christians because the Quran agrees that the Royal "We" written before (4.171) is evidence that the Godhead is more than one person in respect to the expansion of the universe.(4.171) is not the Words of God but the words of men because its a contradiction to the Muslims Quran that says that the royal "We" is responsible for the universe expansion.The Lord Jesus Christ should not be a contradiction to the "We" given in the Quran agree's previously that the oneness of the Godhead is consists of more than one person. The Quran does not say I created the heavens but that "We" created meaning a joint effort in the oneness of the Godhead. The Christians correctly call this the oneness of the godhead the trinity and that Jesus Christ is of the true light and nothing including the entire universe came into being without Christ including the expansion of the universe. I thought E=mc2 mean't that it was not possible for light in respect to light to go faster that lights speed. I agree though that God and God alone is loosening the bands of gravity causing the Cosmic Constant where the galaxy itself is not travelling faster than light relative to local space.Thus there is no problem with God and God alone being the dark energy responsible for the expansion of the universe and the We in the Quran and the book of Job that Jesus Christ is one member of the Royal We as expressed in the Quran and the gospel of John that all things were made thru him that is true light of true light, etc... Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

Or the royal We refers to only one person, and is an English construct from a different language...like Arabic. See this source if you need further confirmation.

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He begins to remember his "Trinity," he puts one and one together and comes up with "three." He then quickly locates the nearest Muslim in order to share with him the discovery that: "I have just found proof of the Trinity in your Qur'an!"

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This has become such a common occurrence that it will be dealt with separately as an independent topic. The problem arises from the very nature of the Arabic and English languages themselves. In both Arabic and Hebrew, there are two types of 'we'. One is the plural pronoun used by English speaking countries (such as "we rode in the car together," "we all come from the same country"...etc.). The second is the plural of RESPECT. 'We' is used in the Qur'an when describing Allah Almighty in the second sense. It is used to magnify and glorify God as well as to display respect and humility to our Creator.

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Arabs are not blind. They can tell the difference between one and many. This is simply the nature of the Arabic language. This is how an Arab displays respect and humility. Even when speaking of one's wife, a Muslim in many Arab countries usually does not mention her by name. Neither does he say "she" or "her" but rather "they" and "them." This is also a form of respect for our wives, mothers and sisters. This is why we find that in the over one billion Muslims all over the world, even the simple Muslim shepherd in the desert does not pray to a "Trinity." Because they know their language.

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This system is not restricted to the Arabs alone. The Arabs are a Semitic tribe, and their Semitic cousins, the Jews, also use the same system to refer to God. In the Old Testament, the Jews refer to God as "Elohiym" {el-o-heem}. "Elohiym" is the plural form of "'elowahh" {el-o'-ah}, which means "god." We will notice that the Jews also do not pray to a "Trinity," even though their book refers to God in the plural form. This is the way the Semitic languages of Arabic and Hebrew work.

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Hopefully that should really be cleared up now as a translation artifact. No, it means that Energy and Mass are interchangeable terms. Obviously light will never go faster than itself. Of course there isn't - that's the joy of ideas which are unfalsfiable. They are fine with everything if you want to look at it in a certain way. Naturally, these interpretations come after science has come to its conclusions. We don't see 14th century Muslims discussing spacetime expansion.

Answers in Genesis says that when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree they had become as one of us. The virgin birth giving birth to Immanuel (which means God with us). The Royal "We" only agree's with their Jewish Semitic cousins in that us in Genesis clearly means there is more than one person in the Godhead.Given parts of the Quran were written by mohammad then one error means that mohammad is a false prophet. There is too many contradictions in the Quran to believe mohammad was a holy prophet.Thus one need not take what Mohammad prophecy seriously that no more prophets or apostles would be sent by God. Just because muslims kill christians does not mean no prophets or apostles were sent by God.-----------------------------------------------A further contradiction in the inheritance laws is the above not mentioned verse of Sura 4:7To the men a share of what parents and kinsmen leave and
to the women a share of what parents and kinsmen leave,
whether it (the property) be little or much, a share apportioned.
determining that men and women should each get an equal share (the parallel construction makes that obvious) clearly contradicting the instruction in 4:11, sayingAllah charges you, concerning your children:
to the male the like of the portion of two females, ...http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html-------------------------------------Mohammed declared that God is dead because God will never speak again nor send His prophets or apostles. By declaring this, Mohammed blasphemed God, and by saying this, he made the "unchanging" God as "changed." But I want to tell you that it is possible that Mohammed is correct in his prediction because Allah and the God of the Bible is not the same God.Mohammed - Bible and Quran - Sherly ( Shirley ) Isaac I agree that one can make a case that God is responsible for the expansion of the entire universe.

Of course AiG would say that. I'd be more impressed if you can show that Jewish people believe that. The fact remains, the Qur'an rejects the Trinity. Allah is one God to Muslims, regardless of how you interpret their language and grammar. The inerrency of the Qur'an is as irrelevant to discussion here as the inerrency of the Holy Bible is. Right, and one can make a case that God is responsible for keeping the universe static and Satan is responsible for making the universe look like it is expanding whilst the Flying Spaghetti Monster fondles them both with his noodly appendages.

The Book of Genesis does infer to the trinity as it says us in respect to the eating of the forbidden fruit, and its in agreement with the Royal "We".A prophets Words are not his Words but Gods and the multitude of errors in Mohammads proves he was never a prophet of God. The Quran clearly say "We" in respect to God and the Jews and the Christians all agree that the We is the One True God. This is evidence that the Muslims actually believe in the trinity and should toss the Words of Muhammad out of the Quran.The Quran does say that God is responsible for the steady expansion of the heavens. The We means trinity because it means the one God that is made up of more than one person. This is why they use plurality and singularity as do the Christians in respect to the oneness of the triune God. Jesus Christ is in agreement with the We in the Quran and with the We meaning oneness in the godhead. I suppose one could make a case that mohammad was one of satans stooges and that the Great Satan is the god of the muslims. The Words of the Quran in respect to the expansion of the universe clearly give credit to God and God alone.Mohammads belief that the We means one without the trinity is clearly a contradiction. The royal "We" means plurality and oneness of the Godhead, and the Christians have no problem with the oneness of the Godhead. That God and God alone is responsible for the expansion of the universe. These words were written long before science concurred that the universe is indeed expanding and not crunching.Its an example of the Words of God having an inerrancy because they were sealed and have now been unsealed by both the muslims and the Christians. The answer of course is yes the evidence is that God and God alone is the answer to the expansion of the heavens. The CC (cosmic constant) is simply explained by scripture that God says that he is able to loosen the bands to move entire star clusters. In fact the Words of God says that he alone is responsible for the expansion of the heavens. The galaxies themselves as we agree in respect to local space is not violating the theory of relativity.However is not the speed of some of these galaxies from the expansion "CC" that is God alone that is loosening the space between these galaxies so that they continue spreading apart faster and faster until the galaxies light eventually can not overcome this rate of the cosmic constant expansion. Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

The royal We, the Qu'ran, and the trinity are NOT the topic of this thread.This is in Big Bang and Cosmology in the science forums.

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Looks like we are going around in circles here. You seem fixated on applying English grammar and constructs to the Semitic languages.
The concept of 'we' is an honorific in semitic languages and doesn't imply more than one person. I have put my evidence forward, and cited my sources. Readers may make their own conclusions from this rather than be subjected to us repeating the point over and over again. And one can say likewise of the jews. Indeed - the entire point is that one can make a case for just about anything when it comes to God, which renders all cases effectively meaningless.Unless you can advance the debate beyond where we are now, I guess we have reached the end of useful debate on the subject and we should no longer clog the thread up. To help you establish where my position is easily, I'm posting a summary here. Feel free to rebut if you think it adds something to the debate. Feel free to instead post your own summary.

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Summary

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Muslims reject the Trinity. It says so right there in Qur'an, what they believe to be the absolute unchanging word of God.The 'We' in semitic languages does not necessarily imply a collective. It can be used to refer to a single individual in an honorific sense. Jews and Muslims are not stupid - they know what the words in their Holy Books mean. Many of them actually still speak the language in one form or another. Christians, who often speak no Semitic language, are forever coming to the conclusion that 'we' implies a trinity. Native speakers weren't impressed when the argument was first put forward and they remain unimpressed today.Any rebuttal you want to put for this should be in a new thread.

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Science can explain the expansion without the need of an invisible sky father entity directly intervening. Thus, God is an unparsimonious explanation. Relativity is not violated by any of this.The 'universe is expanding' interpretation of scripture was only revealed after science had already concluded it. Classic after the fact reasoning going on right there.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Actually Science is a bit more unparsimonious than the creationists explanation because the Word was written before the scientists had any evidence that the universe was expanding.While I agree that relativity does not appear to be violated in the local space of the different galaxies. It does appear that the space thats not local (CC) between galaxies does violate relativity. The galaxies are moving apart at times greater than light speed thus the need of the scientist to explain this Cosmic Constant (CC) became a term called dark energy.I suspect even if lights speed limit is proven to be a thousand times faster in space bringing the universe far closer that triangulation would still only support that the universe to be expanding.The Word written before Abrahams had already declared that God and God alone is responsible for the spreading out of the heavens and he and not dark energy explains the CC disparities. Science is classic after fact reasoning given the Word was written before science concluded that the universe was expanding.I agree its time to leave though would be interested if someone can explain how galaxies moving apart greater than lights speed does not violate relativity.Happy New Year,Charley

The Galaxies are not actually moving, the space between them is simply stretching/expanding (General Relativity). Concerns of violating light speed only apply to objects travelling relatively in inertial frames (Special Relativity). There is no violation.Furthermore, the expansion of the universe is a direct consequence of standard General Relatvity and has nothing to do with the Cosmological Constant/Dark Energy. The CC/DE is responsible for the recently observed *increase* in the expansion rate, where-as before we thought the expansion was slowing.

You are hopelessly and erroneously mixing evolution with cosmology - how can you expect anyone to take you seriously."Evolutionist" do not speak of "black energy".Concerning Job and cosmology read this....Three views of cosmologyAnd then reread Job and see how it all make sense.

You need to know, if you don't already, that charley is also whatever, Bret
Craig
johnfolton
The Golfer
Tim
Tomand who knows how many other aliases of moon pool and stone sea anchor fame.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I can accept that space is simply expanding filling in the loosening of space between the galaxies.Thank-you,Charley

I find that highly unlikely. For one thing, he's got a lot more posts than I do. Trolls and people who use multiple usernames usually don't stay long enough under one alias to have that many post count.Added by edit.My mistake. I just looked at his profile.Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.