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Author
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Topic: Before Big Bang God or Singularity
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 1 of 405 (451845)
01-28-2008 9:30 PM
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Rahvin and I were discussing God the singularity and the Big Bang in another thread, He thought we were getting too far off topic and suggested I start a thread where we could discuss it. In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang to randman Rahvin said:
Rahvin writes: Again, this is special pleading. The Universe could not possibly have always existed, but your god can? Even the Big Bang does not suggest that there was a point "before" the Universe existed - only that it existed as the Singularity at the beginning of the expansion we now see. In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I comented on Rahvin's statement:
ICANT writes: You are saying I must believe the singularity came from an absence of anything and you don't call that special pleading? In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang Rahvin responded:
Rahvin writes: I'm not saying that the Singularity came from anything at all. In fact, Im saying quite the opposite. We know that the Singularity existed, and that asking about "before" the Singularity is a nonsense question. We also know that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed - there is no special pleading, because we know that the Universe exists. There is no evidence of god, and thus he is an extraneous entity. In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I responded:
Rahvin writes: We know that the Singularity existed, ICANT writes: Could you site your references for this statement. In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I was told:
Rahvin writes: Try every paper ever written concerning the Big Bang. The Singularity is simply the single point from which the Universe expanded at the Big Bang. We know it existed by extrapolating the expansion of the Universe backwards. The Singularity does not, however, imply that the Universe did not exist at some point, as you seem to believe. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed - the Singularity is simply the state of the Universe as it began expanding. Creationists are the ones who claim the Universe did not exist at some point. I have read quite a few but I was wanting one that said "We know that the Singularity existed," as I had never seen one. In http:// EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang --> EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang to Rahvin :
qs=RahvinThe Singularity does not, however, imply that the Universe did not exist at some point, ICANT writes: Make up your mind. The big bang theory supposedly proved the universe had a beginning. Now you are saying it never had a beginning. Rahvin writes: the Singularity is simply the state of the Universe as it began expanding. ICANT writes: If there was no space. If there was no time. If there was no energy. If there was no matter. That sounds like an absence of anything to me. Therefore there was no singularity. At the instant of the Big Bang, the universe was infinitely dense and unimaginably hot. Cosmologists believe that all forms of matter and energy, as well as space and time itself, were formed at this instant. Since "before" is a temporal concept, one cannot ask what came before the Big Bang and therefore "caused" it, at least not within the context of any known physics.
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang. I will reference the Bible. I will reference scientific papers.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 5 of 405 (451862)
01-28-2008 10:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by tesla
01-28-2008 10:31 PM
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Re: tesla
Hi tesla,
testa writes: so in essence, you want to know...before that? I thought the OP was pretty specific as to what I wanted. Did God create the Universe as stated in Genesis 1:1. Did the universe come into existence at the Big Bang from singularity. Now I have no need of you coming into my thread and repeating the same thing I have read in several different threads. If you would like to contribute to the discussion as it unfolds I will be glad to respond to your posts but if you spam my thread I will protest. Do you think God is the best explanation or the singularity? Personally I think God is as I believe in divine creation. Have fun and stay on topic. Edited by ICANT, : correct spelling
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 10:31 PM | | tesla has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 6 of 405 (451863)
01-28-2008 10:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
01-28-2008 10:05 PM
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Re-Bible
Hi GDR
Just a query. He mentioned referencing the Bible. It seems to me that this shouldn't be in a science thread. GDR I have no intention of making this a Bible class my basic approach will be to see if the singularity is possible. Then I will compare events as I see them concerning God to the singularity.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by GDR, posted 01-28-2008 10:05 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 8 of 405 (451871)
01-28-2008 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by tesla
01-28-2008 11:06 PM
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Re: testa
Hi tesla, Sorry for coming down so hard it is late for me and I am tired. I believe God is everywhere and everything. I don't think we need the singularity. And that is what I would like to explore using scientific information. Have fun, Edited by ICANT, : correct spellling
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 PM | | tesla has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:28 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 14 of 405 (451931)
01-29-2008 9:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver
01-29-2008 7:58 AM
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Re-How can I be anywhere
Hi cavediver, cavediver this is just another one of my stupid questions and since you said it was only stupid if I didn't ask it I did.
cavediver writes: Then how can I be anywhere?
Thats easy God created everything and you are here.
cavediver writes: This topic and its predecessor are so littered with abuses of terminology that it is extremely difficult to respond to any particulars... ICANT writes: In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang. What is abusses of terminology do you find in the above question? You address this post to me and then start answering tesla I think. But you did say:
cavediver writes: Strictly, the singularity does not exist Well if the singularity does not exist. You mean the Creo's have been right all the time? Are you saying God is a better answer than singularity? Have fun.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 7:58 AM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 15 of 405 (451945)
01-29-2008 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
01-29-2008 1:47 AM
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Re-North Pole
Hi Taz, I would like to take a crack at this question even though I know it is a trick question. But you did not qualify any particulars so here goes. Your question:
Taz writes: Consider the following. Suppose you are standing directly on the north pole. You ask, "what's north of here?" Is there an answer to this question? The True north pole is south of the magnetic north pole and the magnetic north pole is north of the true north pole according to a compass. Now do you have anything to add to the topic? Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 1:47 AM | | Taz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 11:16 AM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 01-29-2008 12:45 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re-Hard time wraping small head around this
Hi Hill Billy,
Hill Billy writes: Man, I don't know if I can wrap my head around this. I was getting along with what Rahvin said rather easily but cavediver blew my mind with this.
cavediver writes: Strictly, the singularity does not exist
If there was no singularity that the Big Bang expanded from into our universe. There could have been no abiogenesis, thus no evolution which means according to science I am not sitting here typing this message. It is only a figmant of my imagination which does not exist. Either that or the Bible is correct and God created the universe and put man in it. Or Big Bang is dead and we have another theory. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Hill Billy, posted 01-29-2008 1:42 AM | | Hill Billy has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 18 of 405 (451965)
01-29-2008 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by cavediver
01-29-2008 10:25 AM
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Re: Re-How can I be anywhere
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: If you want to quotemine me and ignore the obvious implications in what I am saying then I'm afraid I'm too busy to bother communicating any further You tell me: cavediver writes: This topic and its predecessor are so littered with abuses of terminology When I asked: ICANT writes: which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang. Then you started answering someone else rather than address my question what do you expect me to do? If you are convinced of the string or superstring theory just say so. But that has nothing to do with the question. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 10:25 AM | | cavediver has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 21 of 405 (452001)
01-29-2008 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Taz
01-29-2008 11:16 AM
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Re: Re-North Pole
Hi Taz,
Taz writes: People always ask what's before the singularity as if it's somehow going to destroy science and bring back christian theocratic rule. I'm just tired of seeing this argument put forth over and over... as if 200 years of science advancement will be destroyed by this question. First, a question can destroy nothing the answer is another thing. Science says there was a singularity. Big Bang says there was a singularity. Unless Science has changed it's collective mind. There are many that think the theory as now put forth is very incomplete. I say there was no singularity therefore there could be no Big Bang as taught. You care to show evidence that I am wrong? I would love to discuss it. That is the question in the OP God or singularity, including Big Bang. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 11:16 AM | | Taz has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Re-North Pole
Hi Scientist,
Catholic Scientist writes: Why don't (can't) you show evidence that you are right? First we must decide if there was a beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm
One of the most persistently asked questions has been: How was the universe created? Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however,no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning. About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. However, science has now told us that the universe is, in fact, finite, with a beginning, a middle, and a future. Beginning - definition of beginning by The Free Dictionary
be·gin·ning 1. The act or process of bringing or being brought into being; a start. This definition implies that none of the things brought into being during the orgin of the universe had an existence prior to the orgin of the universe. Therefore it is not the distribution of things but the actual creation of those things and the distribution of them. Can we agree that these statements are true? Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 28 of 405 (452052)
01-29-2008 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by NosyNed
01-29-2008 12:45 PM
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Re: Not a trick question
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes: It is not a trick. It is a learning tool to understand something about the formation of valid statements and questions. Sure it is a trick question. It is intended to divert the attention away from the real question. Which is:
ICANT writes: which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang. It is just like another question that is asked: "Then who created God?" Would you like to discuss the question I proposed in my OP or your question. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 01-29-2008 12:45 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by PMOC, posted 01-29-2008 1:24 PM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 65 by NosyNed, posted 01-29-2008 8:00 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 30 of 405 (452066)
01-29-2008 1:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by cavediver
01-29-2008 1:00 PM
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Re: Not a trick question
Hi cavediver, Glad to see you are still here.
cavediver writes: Unfortunately, that is all ICANT wants to do. His disrespect for actual knowledge is blatently obvious. Typical idiot teenager. As a Christian, he needs to go to his pastor and ask him about humility and how one goes about learning topics that are seriously out of his depth. Hopefully his pastor will have the good grace to explain a few home truths. Could I correct just a couple of things you wrote? Oh well I will anyway. I was born the first time in 1939 I was born again in 1949. I began my first pastorate when in 1967. I am presently my pastor so I don't have anyone to go to. As far as humility I have been around EvC too long to have any of that left to use while on site. I have all the respect in the world for knowledge it is fantastic. When it comes to lies, half truths, and suppositions that is a different story. I have no respect for those. Would you like to discuss my question or throw up smoke? Or you could say the Big Bang and singularity is lacking in evidence to answer your question. However I, cavediver and others have a better theory or an amendment to the Big Bang theory. Then we could discuss that. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 1:00 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 31 of 405 (452072)
01-29-2008 1:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by PMOC
01-29-2008 1:24 PM
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Re: Faulty Premise
Hi PMOC, And welcome to EvC
PMOC writes: I have my own question. Are we going to be mucking up the cosmology boards with this stuff as well? It does look like everybody is trying to muck up the cosmology board instead of address the question. Have you noticed nobody has said: God is the best explanation. Singularity and the Big Bang theory is the best explanation. Other than myself and we are at 30 posts. Maybe this should be in something called: "Faith and bash the Creo". Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by PMOC, posted 01-29-2008 1:24 PM | | PMOC has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 34 of 405 (452092)
01-29-2008 1:58 PM
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Re Singularity
Since no one will engage in debate only in insults I will present my case in full. Below is statements from Dr. Hawking concerning the singularity and the Big Bang. "NOTICE" I say if Dr. Hawking is correct in what "HE" says in these lectures there could have been no singularity the universe expanded from. There is no way one could form under the circumstances he described that they were created in. "NOTICE" I am not saying that there is no way possible for a singularity to exist. But I am saying that under the understood Big Bang Theory it could not have. Under an amended Big Bang Theory it could exist. But as the Theory is today God is the best explanation of what happened in the beginning. If you care to refute Dr. Hawking, Have fun,
quote:
Definition of Singularity
A spacetime is singular if it is timelike or null geodesically incomplete, but can not be embedded in a larger spacetime.
Hawking's comments on spacetime.
quote:
I have emphasized what I consider the two most remarkable features that I have learnt in my research on space and time: first, that gravity curls up spacetime so that it has a begining and an end. Second, that there is a deep connection between gravity and thermodynamics that arises because gravity itself determines the topology of the manifold on which it acts.
Hawking's comments on production of singularities.
quote:
The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities at which classical general relativity broke down.
Now if I understand this. The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities... Gravity curls up spacetime so that it has a begining and an end. Spacetime has a beginning and an end. No gravity no beginning of spacetime. No spacetime no singularity. No singularity no big bang. Gravity supposedly came after the big bang. That leaves me with 2 choices. 1. The universe was created out of the absence of anything. OR 2. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen. 1:1 I particularly enjoyed one comment made by Dr. Hawking in the lectures he made at the Isaac Newton Institute in Cambridge.
quote:
It seems God still has a few tricks up his sleeve.
Lectures the nature of space and time at: The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404) Have fun
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 35 of 405 (452099)
01-29-2008 2:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by cavediver
01-29-2008 1:49 PM
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Re: Not a trick question
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: unwilling to learn what the word singularity means, why would I even begin to answer your question? I do know what it means I looked it up. Do you have a better definition than Dr. Hawking? Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 1:49 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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