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Author Topic:   Big Bang...How Did it Happen?
suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 414 (137206)
08-26-2004 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Navy10E
03-13-2004 3:01 AM


Its not possible
Let’s take it point by pointThat is the theory. It all sounds so simple, just as you would find in a science fiction novel. And that is all it is. The theory stands in clear violation of physical laws, celestial mechanics, and common sense. Here are a number of scientific reasons why the Big Bang theory is unworkable and fallacious.
THE BIG BANG EXPLOSION
1 - The Big Bang theory is based on theoretical extremes. It may look good in math calculations, but it can’t actually happen. A tiny bit of nothing packed so tightly together that it blew up and produced all the matter in the universe. Seriously now, this is a fairy tale. It is a bunch of armchair calculations, and nothing else. It is easy to theorize on paper. The Big Bang is a theoretical extreme, just as a black hole is. It is easy to theorize that something is true, when it has never been seen and there is no definitive evidence that it exists or ever happened. But let us not mistake Disneyland theories for science.
2 - Nothingness cannot pack together. It would have no way to push itself into a pile. It would have no way to push itself into a pile.
3 - A vacuum has no density. It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded. But a total vacuum is the opposite of total density. It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded. But a total vacuum is the opposite of total density.
4 - There would be no ignition to explode nothingness. No fire and no match. It could not be a chemical explosion, for no chemicals existed. It could not be a nuclear explosion, for there were no atoms! No fire and no match. It could not be a chemical explosion, for no chemicals existed. It could not be a nuclear explosion, for there were no atoms!
5 - There is no way to expand it. How can you expand what isn’t there? Even if that magical vacuum could somehow be pulled together by gravity, what would then cause the pile of emptiness to push outward? The "gravity" which brought it together would keep it from expanding.
6 - Nothingness cannot produce heat. The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons. First, an empty vacuum in the extreme cold of outer space cannot get hot by itself. Second, an empty void cannot magically change itself into matter. Third, there can be no heat without an energy source. The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons.
7 — The calculations are too exacting. Too perfect an explosion would be required. On many points, the theoretical mathematical calculations needed to turn a Big Bang into stars and our planet cannot be worked out; in others they are too exacting. Knowledgeable scientists call them "too perfect." Mathematical limitations would have to be met which would be next to impossible to achieve. The limits for success are simply too narrow.
Most aspects of the theory are impossible, and some require parameters that would require miracles to fulfill. One example of this is the expansion of the original fireball from the Big Bang, which they place precisely within the narrowest of limits. An evolutionist astronomer, *R.H. Dicke, says it well:
"If the fireball had expanded only .1 percent faster, the present rate of expansion would have been 3 x 103 times as great. Had the initial expansion rate been 0.1 percent less, the Universe would have expanded to only 3 x 10-6 of its present radius before collapsing. At this maximum radius the density of ordinary matter would have been 10-12 grm/m3, over 1016 times as great as the present mass density. No stars could have formed in such a Universe, for it would not have existed long enough to form stars."*R.H. Dickey, Gravitation and the Universe (1969), p. 62.
8 - Such an equation would have produced not a universe but a hole. *Roger L. St. Peter in 1974 developed a complicated mathematical equation that showed that the theorized Big Bang could not have exploded outward into hydrogen and helium. In reality, St. Peter says the theoretical explosion (if one could possibly take place) would fall back on itself and make a theoretical black hole! This means that one imaginary object would swallow another one!
9 - There is not enough antimatter in the universe. This is a big problem for the theorists. The original Big Bang would have produced equal amounts of positive matter (matter) and negative matter (antimatter). But only small amounts of antimatter exist. There should be as much antimatter as matterif the Big Bang was true.
"Since matter and antimatter are equivalent in all respects but that of electromagnetic charge oppositeness, any force [the Big Bang] that would create one should have to create the other, and the universe should be made of equal quantities of each. This is a dilemma. Theory tells us there should be antimatter out there, and observation refuses to back it up."*Isaac Asimov, Asimov’s New Guide to Science, p. 343.
"We are pretty sure from our observations that the universe today contains matter, but very little if any antimatter."*Victor Weisskopf, "The Origin of the Universe," American Scientist, 71, p. 479.
10 - The antimatter from the Big Bang would have destroyed all the regular matter. This fact is well-known to physicists. As soon as the two are produced in the laboratory, they instantly come together and annihilate one another.
THE OUTWARD RUSHING PARTICLES
1 - There is no way to unite the particles. As the particles rush outward from the central explosion, they would keep getting farther and farther apart from one another.
2 - Outer space is frictionless, and there would be no way to slow the particles. The Big Bang is postulated on a totally empty space, devoid of all matter, in which a single explosion fills it with outward-flowing matter. There would be no way those particles could ever slow.
3 - The particles would maintain the same vector (speed and direction) forever. Assuming the particles were moving outward through totally empty space, there is no way they could change direction. They could not get together and begin circling one another.
4 - There is no way to slow the particles. They are traveling at supersonic speed, and every kilometer would separate them farther from one other.
5 - There is no way to change the direction of even one particle. They would keep racing on forever, never slowing, never changing direction. There is no way to get the particles to form into atoms or cluster into gaseous clouds. Angular momentum would be needed, and the laws of physics could not produce it.
6 - How could their atomic structures originate? Atoms, even hydrogen and helium, have complex structures. There is no way that outward shooting particles, continually separating farther from each other as they travel, could arrange themselves into atomic structures.
We will now assume that, contrary to physical laws, (1) the particles magically that, contrary to physical laws, (1) the particles magically DID manage to move toward one another together, and (2) the particles COULD slow down and change directions.
THE PARTICLES CHANGED DIRECTIONS AND FORMED GAS CLOUDS
The theoryGradually, the outward-racing particles are said to have begun circling one another, forming atoms. These atoms then changed direction further (this time toward one another) and formed gas clouds which then pushed together into stars.
This aspect of the stellar evolution theory is as strange as that which preceded it.
1 - Gas molecules in outer space are widely separated. By "gas," we mean atoms of hydrogen and/or helium which are separated from one another. All gas in outer space has a density so rarified that it is far less than the emptiest atmospheric vacuum pressure bottle in any laboratory in the world! Gas in outer space is rarer (less dense; atoms more separated) than anything on earth.
2 - Neither hydrogen nor helium in outer space would clump together. In fact, there is no gas on earth that clumps together either. Gas pushes apart; it does not push together. Separated atoms of hydrogen and/or helium would be even less likely to clump together in outer space."In the sequence of atomic weight numbers 5 and 8 are vacant. That is, there is no stable atom of mass 5 or mass 8 . . The question then is: How can the build-up of elements by neutron capture get by these gaps? The process could not go beyond helium 4 and even if it spanned this gap it would be stopped again at mass 8. This basic objection to Gamow’s theory is a great disappointment in view of the promise and philosophical attractiveness of the idea."*William A. Fowler, California Institute of Technology, quoted in Creation Science, p. 90.
MORE FACTS
WHICH BURY THE THEORY
MORE PROBLEMS FOR STELLAR EVOLUTION
1 - According to the theory, older stars should have more heavy elements because they are continually making them. But the so-called "older stars" have been found to have no more heavy elements than the so-called "younger stars." All stars, from "young" to "old," have the same amount of heavy elements.
2 - The theory says that gas floating in interstellar space is leftover from the Big Bang, and can only consist of hydrogen and helium. But *Rubins has shown that this is not true. Extra-galactic gas has a variety of heavier elements in it.
3 - The theory says that the super-fast particles, hurled outward by the Big Bang, were evenly radiated. Yet, as scientists have noted, a perfectly smooth cosmic explosion would only have produced perfectly smooth, increasingly rarified (ever farther apart) particles. So the very existence of stars disproves the theorized original giant explosion.
4 - The theory requires a continual rush of particles outwardleaving nothing inside this outer parimeter of outflowing matter. Yet there are stars and galaxies all through space, not just at the outer edge. Even if clumped gas could have formed any stars, everything would continue to be hurled to the thin, outer edges of spacewith an expanding center containing nothing.
5 - According to the theory, the farther we look out into space, the farther back into past eons of time we are gazing. This means that the farthest stars and galaxies ought to be the youngest. Yet research reveals the farthest stars are just like those nearby.
6 - Angular momentum is another serious problem. Why do stars turn? Why do galaxies rotate? Why do planets orbit stars? Why do binary stars circle one another? How could the super-fast linear (straight line) motion, started by the supposed Big Bang, have changed into rotation (spinning or revolving motion) and revolutions (orbiting motion)? How could angular momentum existand in such perfectly balanced orbits throughout space? There is no possible way that floating gas could transform itself into rotating and orbiting objects, like stars, planets, and moons.
7 - Inward pushing gas would not change to a rotating star. According to the theory, stars were formed by the "inward gravitational collapse of hydrogen gas clouds." If so, why do the resultant stars rotate? Some stars rotate very fast. If ten people in a circle pushed marbles in toward a common center, the marbles would not begin rotating or circling after they reached it.
8 - Matter-origin theories cannot explain why stars spin. The theorists tell us that stars somehow started spinning; but, with age, they slow down. Yet some stars spin faster than either "younger" or "older" stars. Some spin once in less than an earth-day. The fastest, Hz 1883, has a spin period of only 6 hours.
9 - Some stars orbit backward to that of other stars. The theorists cannot explain this.
10 - There are high-velocity stars that are traveling far too fast to accommodate the evolutionary theories of matter and stellar origins.
11 - If the Big Bang theory were true, all stars would move the same direction, but stars, clusters, and galaxies are moving in various directions opposite to one another. (More about the expanding universe theory later.)
12 - Evidence is accumulating that the entire universe is rotating! This is angular momentum on the most gigantic of proportions. Yet the Big Bang should only have produced linear movement outward from it.
13 - Theorists are deeply bothered by, what they call, the "lumpy" problem. The universe is "lumpy"; that is, it has stars, planets, etc. in it. Yet none should exist if the Big Bang theory were true. They argue fiercely over these problems, in their professional journals, while assuring the public the theory is accepted by all astrophysicists. They consider this to be a major, unsolved problem.

-suave-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Navy10E, posted 03-13-2004 3:01 AM Navy10E has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by AdminNosy, posted 08-26-2004 9:11 PM suaverider has not replied
 Message 192 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 9:31 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 195 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 9:58 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 196 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:07 PM suaverider has not replied
 Message 198 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:18 PM suaverider has not replied
 Message 200 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:41 PM suaverider has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 414 (137216)
08-26-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 9:31 PM


Re: This one is going to be fun
Common sense tells me that nothing cannot pack together and blow up. How can nothing do anything except not exist? I mean there were no chemicals to explode and no atoms nothing can't get hot right? If someone can explain to me how nothing can explode I would like to see it. Thank you.
Doesn't thermodynamics show that on its own energy cannot be created or destroyed and everything goes to disorder over time not the other way around?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 9:31 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 414 (137226)
08-26-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 9:58 PM


Re: Part I.
You seem to be very angry and it seems that you are insinuating that I am not smart enough to understand how nothing can explode and do all the magical stuff that it would have had to do in order for this theory to ever happen in the first place you keep telling me to read a book your the one that spelled clue as cluw maybe you should check a few out yourself or give those drugs a break as you told me to do some of your post only stated that the answer would be to complicated to explain that's interesting.. on a simple level tell me how nothing can explode before we get to the information you just wrote because if you cant then what you said is useless. If a is impossible then there is no b or c to your theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 9:58 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:23 PM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 414 (137236)
08-26-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 10:23 PM


Re: I misspelled because my laptop keyboard sucks.
I could give you a list of books but it seems you are coming from a lower level than that.
What is your background and/or age?
Typical evolutionist talk IM smart your not so you cant understand why I'M right that's great. OK however you say it happened if it exploded or slowly happened you are saying you believe that from total nothingness all That we see came from nothing. That's what I want you to try to explain What proof of this can you show? do you believe it only because someone told you it was true. And I have only seen explosions to cause destruction never perfect order to where life can come to be from it. But my question remains how can all we see come from nonexistence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:23 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:52 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 220 by AdminNosy, posted 08-27-2004 3:32 AM suaverider has not replied
 Message 223 by coffee_addict, posted 08-27-2004 11:41 AM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 414 (137244)
08-26-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 10:52 PM


Re: Did you read...
I know the big bang never happened so I don't have to worry about it.
The question about coming from nonexistence is really a philosophical one and not really a scientific one.
So in other words your theory is based on philosophy and tells me its philosophical and not scientific thank you for your information I thought we were talking about science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:52 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:09 PM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 414 (137250)
08-26-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:09 PM


Re: Ok you're not interested in learning...
If 'you know' how come you don't even know basic high school senior physics like angular momentum conservation?
You seem to be Stating that YOU KNOW What I do and do not know by saying I don't even know basic high school senior physics like angular momentum conservation. So I will let you tell me I guess
The philosophy comment was addressing the common question where did the Big Bang come from? Well that is not a question physics at this time (and maybe ever) can answer.
Believe me I know. You don't have a beginning to your faith because Some guy that wasn't there just said what if this happened and here we are with you saying you don't really no how nothing can create all things with order but you believe it any way that's some strong faith you have.
But physics can ask and answer questions about what happens after something that Genesis does a piss poor job of doing.
show me where genesis does this bad job,.
By the way you have not answered 2 things I asked:
Do you know why the Big bang theory came about?
What is your background, especially with your 'I know' arrogance?
#1 Again I know that the big dud didn't happen look around at the order and precision think about it.
#2 I do not want you to know my back ground I don't know you. You May be a psycho not saying you are but for peace of mind.
with your 'I know' arrogance?
You were rude to me first telling me to read a book I can dish it right back but I want to show the flaws in your theory not you I want you to see the light. I do know The big dud is false with common sense I can see proof all around all this was designed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:09 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:42 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 208 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:46 PM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 414 (137256)
08-26-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:42 PM


Re: Ok you're not interested in learning...
How is this rude to point this out? If I said Sammy Sosa was a great basketball player it would not be rude for you to point out that he is a baseball player and hence I don't know baseball very well.
True but it would be rude to say Sammy sosa needs to read some books on hitting baseball's Because I think he isn't very educated in doing this. (opinion)
Do you know the origin of the Big Bang Theory or are you going to dodge this question again?
My point is there was no origin to the big bang. How can I dodge stating the origin of something that didn't happen?
I was asking for your background in the sense of age and/or science background not your name and address. Geez!
I don't see how that is important what does it matter will that knowledge help you in proving the points you are trying to make? I am more comfortable with us staying strangers. (you can call me suave though)
I said read a book (or 7) because how can someone give you detailed responses to the several dozen comments you made. I'd be typing several thousand words over the next two days, I don't think that is likely to happen.
You couldn't show me how your theory even started if a plain can't get off the ground it cant fly same as your theory. Wake up before its to late. so lets address this point first not the other 12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:42 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:10 AM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 414 (137257)
08-27-2004 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:46 PM


Re: i just saw your profile..
That website should have a goverment mental health warning and be off limits to those under 18.
Well I don't think its any crazier than thinking a rock came alive (that came from nothing)and from that non thinking hunk of crud here I am. Talking and everything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:46 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 AM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 414 (137269)
08-27-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Eta_Carinae
08-27-2004 12:10 AM


Re: Oh boy this is hard work...
But it is not rude to say you need to read a physics/astronomy book because it is obvious you do.
(That's Opinion) You don't know me you are assuming I need this but you cant prove it so its insulting at least to me. You can say by my posts YOU think I need this or that but thats just you.
not the origin of the Big Bang, but why the theory was developed
Yes the theory was invented so people could sin and believe there was no punishment to come from this and maybe so they could pretend to be GOD but I tell you that you will find out someday so you better be sure of yourselves because then it will be to late there is still time to be saved if you care about your eternal destiny.
10 out of 10 die we all will what if your wrong only JESUS CAN SAVE YOU through his sacrifice I Pray you except him and escape this wrath that is to come I do care I am not here to win this debate for me but to show you the way to the LORD It is important more than we can know.
You are probably a high school kid with zero science knowledge.
No I'm out of school and grateful I had to hear that theory for years with no alternative it was like they were trying to brainwash me into believing this lie.
I think you mean plane
OK we are even.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:10 AM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 12:43 AM suaverider has replied
 Message 217 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 1:47 AM suaverider has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 414 (137270)
08-27-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Eta_Carinae
08-27-2004 12:13 AM


Re: So you don't know evolution either.
GOOD ONE , well leave Hovind alone unless he is here to defend himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 AM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by suaverider, posted 08-27-2004 12:39 AM suaverider has not replied
 Message 221 by NosyNed, posted 08-27-2004 3:35 AM suaverider has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 414 (137271)
08-27-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by suaverider
08-27-2004 12:37 AM


Re: So you don't know evolution either.
And yes part of my statement was childish nonsense the part about nothing exploding and then coming alive.
This message has been edited by suaverider, 08-26-2004 11:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by suaverider, posted 08-27-2004 12:37 AM suaverider has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 414 (137508)
08-27-2004 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by jar
08-27-2004 12:43 AM


Re: Oh boy this is hard work...
First, almost all Christian Churches accept both Evolution and the Big Bang. There is no conflict between either theory and Christianity.
Well to start with that is false evolution teaches death brought man into the world the BIBLE THE WORD OF GOD teaches man brought death into the world through sin. The bible says in the beginning not in a million years. GOD created all things in six days and rested on the seventh because creation was done and for us to work six days and rest on the Sabbath. That's only a few conflicts.
I realize many of you are brainwashed or have stood up for something that's crumbling to new discoveries and because of pride don't want to admit your error but that step is necessary in finding the truth
the bible says by proclaiming themselves wise they became fools.
Say that YOU NO ONE PERCENT OF EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE then you would have to admit that there is a chance of God's existence and you haven't found it yet if not you have blinded yourself to your faith.
Another point even if it took a million years for evolution to happen (I don't believe it) there still would have had to be one second between the nonliving matter (a rock) being nonliving then in the next second being alive think it over and having to survive.what's the chances.
Archaeology and the Bible - ChristianAnswers.Net some info.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 12:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Chiroptera, posted 08-27-2004 8:26 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 228 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 8:47 PM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 414 (137509)
08-27-2004 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by coffee_addict
08-27-2004 11:41 AM


Re: I misspelled because my laptop keyboard sucks.
It's ok to discuss about it, but try to watch it. Eta is a real live physicist.
But he is still a man and man can be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by coffee_addict, posted 08-27-2004 11:41 AM coffee_addict has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 414 (137512)
08-27-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Chiroptera
08-27-2004 8:26 PM


Re: Oh boy this is hard work...
Well when it was replicating that's alive enough for me but in the instance in between the replicating to the defiantly alive sequence there would have only been a second.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Chiroptera, posted 08-27-2004 8:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Chiroptera, posted 08-27-2004 10:38 PM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 414 (137518)
08-27-2004 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
08-27-2004 8:47 PM


Re: Oh boy this is hard work...
biggest single objection to the idea was that it was too religious in nature.
How can a theory that says all things came from random chance be religious it sounds like the big bang was trying to take GOD out of the picture to me at least.
You really need to start checking your facts before making a statement like that.
Here is a partial list of the Churches that have supported Evolution and that oppose Creationism.
I am a Christian and read the bible and see the differences. If you can believe both evolution and the BIBLE with all the contradictions. I stated a few then I don't know how to help that person they are opposite in every area I have looked. But there are many false religions out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 8:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 9:33 PM suaverider has replied

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