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Author Topic:   Big Bang - Big Dud
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 271 of 287 (284004)
02-04-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-04-2006 7:09 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
If out of absolute nothing came a universe that is brilliantly fine tune with the laws of physics and mathematics and all the rest of the fancy scientific wonderousies
I don't think the Big Bang proposes that the universe came from nothing. The theory doesn't really discuss where the universe came from, it only seeks to explain what the early universe was like (very hot and very dense).
Is the law of causiality not also a fact?
Some things seem to happen without causes. Radioactive decay is one of them. We can predict that 50% of something will decay in a given time, but there is no reason (no cause) why one atom decays over another.
I mean we dont worry about going home one day to find an elephant in our living room, and had just randomly managed to make itself, and I mean build up itself from absolutley nothing, make its bones,
Nor do we worry about all the molecules of oxygen gathering in one corner of the room.
So why do so many "scientists" (and interestingly enough the word science means knowledge) find it hard to "acknowledge" that if there is a singularity, then maybe it had a cause to be there, and since the law of causialty is factual, then maybe, just maybe, "In the beginning God said; Let there be light..."
Actually, when the Big Bang was first described there was a lot of fuss that it confirmed the universe had a 'beginning' which implied a creation event. A lot of scientists believe that God did create the universe at this point. I think Hawking has spoken with regards to this.
But even if some say that the big bang came from a vacum of fluctuating energies, then it really just brings it right back to the topic of how did they get there because you cant get something out of absolute nothingness. FACT!
Its not a fact, we don't know how extra-universe physics works and what laws apply there. In essense we cannot know where reality came from though, it could have been God that created reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-04-2006 7:09 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 277 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 273 of 287 (284183)
02-05-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-05-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
Use the 'peek mode' to learn how to do the quotes. Its essentially 'qs' in square brackets.
Alot of scientists do actually believe that the universe came from nothing, I have been witness to this on many occasions, They actually think someone who believes otherwise is dim-witted, or of a lower class working mind,
Can you name a scientist that says the universe came from nothing?
Should'nt the theory of the big bang actually discuss how it got there, because that is the very foundation on which that particular theory lies upon. I mean the big bang theory has lots of other theories built upon it, who in turn have lots of theories built upon them.(thermodynamics, Eh!)
No it shouldn't. The big bang is just a description of the early universe. Its actually just a subset of Einstein's relativity, which attempts to explain the geometry of space time. Big bang is just that portion of space-time where time is quite small.
Thermodynamics isn't built from big bang - thermodynamics is a Victorian discipline which stemmed from engineering (heat engines and the like).
Physicist Steven Weinberg, (who won a nobel-prize for physics)said within the tiniest split second, the tempreture hit a hundred thousand million degrees Centigrade, and that the matter rushing apart consisted of such elementary particles as negativley charged electrones, positivley charged positrons and neutrinos,which lack both electrical charge and mass, and interestingly there were also photons: the universe he said was filled with light.
Then God said "...Let there be light..."
Indeed.
I thought there was a cause to radioactive decay, an unstable nuclei, but thanks to the law of entropy the decay produces another nucleus and so on and so forth until a stable one is formed.
But there is no cause for one to decay rather than another. If we had four atoms and 50% of them decay in 10 minutes. Would you be able to tell which atoms will have decayed? Would you be able to tell me why the two that did decay decayed and why the two that didn't didn't?
In my opinion the law of causiality is a fact, and there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise.
You should read into quantum physcics. Common sense rules like this get rewritten.
quote:
"Many people believe that everything in nature has to have a causal explanation. Although this may be true at the macroscopic level, it is not necessarily the case at the microscopic level, as quantum physics has demonstrated. Transitions, decays, and nuclear reactions do sometimes occur spontaneously without apparent cause. Similarly, the universe itself does not require a cause" (Crowe, 1995, Is quantum cosmology science? Skeptical Inquirer 19:53-54.)
My analogy of the elephant making itself out of nothing was just to illustrate the chances of something totally functional, and complex in design coming forth from "absolute nothingness" without cause, we know it wouldnt happen.
The same way we know ever oxygen molecule wouldnt gather in the corner of a room without there first being a cause for them to do that.
Yet in spite of of our common sense, both have a statistical probability of happening. Still, its easier to say that they probably won't happen, and we can agree there.
Which just brings it right back to the Fundamental foundational question, how and why did the universe come into being out of absolute nothingness. Because without first understanding that the foundations of a building need to be in order, we cannot build it on with any safety
Indeed, we cannot even know IF the universe came from nothing or not. All we can do is describe the early universe and speculate and hypothesise the rest.
Which is exactly what the modern scientific world has done.
And that is also a fact.
Not at all, the modern scientific world says that the early universe was very hot and dense. If it tries to do the maths to find out what was going on at t=0 we find the maths doing odd things (singularities and infinite densities and all that), the physics breaking down (relativity and quantum mechanics seem to be at odds etc).
So what does the science world do? It says "Sorry, we can describe the universe as early as Planck time (5.391 10’44 seconds), but not before. Before that time, if that makes sense, is currently undescribable...however here are some ideas, none of which we can be more sure of than another".
No, in my opinion man loves to look for new things, new ideas, new possibilities, theories built upon theories, whilst most are never proven either way, and the things we do know are of no real benefit to the universe, since most inventions, products and whatever else man has discovered is mostly doing nothing but exhausting the earth.
Theories, by their very nature, never get proved...only corroborated or falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied

  
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