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Author Topic:   The Big Bang is NOT Scientific
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 45 of 301 (203653)
04-29-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by lost-apathy
04-28-2005 7:05 PM


Observations, Philosophy, and Lost Apathy
lost-apathy writes:
How do you think Darwin came up with the theory of evolution? Philosophy of course. When something cannot be observed you use philosophy to understand it and come up with a hypothesis.
Sup? You started this topic, so lets discuss a few things.
1) Where are you at in school? I am curious..do you want to study science, philosophy, religion, or perhaps all three?
As for me, I grew up basically ignorant of religion and science. I did study philosophy a bit. I read lots of books about many different topics...I used to like to read the encyclopedia!
Words---the expression of ideas--is a wonderful thing! Even though everyone corrects you and lectures you with some good scientific clarifications on the topic that you have brought up, the real joy and value is obtained through being able to communicate.
Have you ever noticed how shallow some conversations can be? Perhaps hanging at the mall with friends, nothing very substantial ever gets said.
That is why school is a wonderful thing! That is why the internet CAN be useful. In our high tech world, high tech communication is possible.
Having said all that, I want to encourage you to refocus and get back to this topic that you started. What is it that you want to tell all of us? Are you happy to just take it light, shoot the breeze, and have some online people to talk to?
Or perhaps you have a gem of wisdom that you want to share with us.
As always, I'm all ears!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by lost-apathy, posted 04-28-2005 7:05 PM lost-apathy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by lost-apathy, posted 04-30-2005 1:17 AM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 47 of 301 (203661)
04-29-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by sidelined
04-29-2005 12:13 PM


Re: A clarification (or, perhaps, a mere perspective)
Sidelined! Needing more sleep, old chap? I too often reply at 4 a.m. Occasionally, unable to sleep, I find myself at EvC.
sidelined writes:
I will do a better job of reading the preceding posts and knowing the topic.
And its not just understanding the topic so much as it is determining the communication motive of the author of the topic. This is why I said what I said to lost-apathy here in the preceding post. Its not just the topic...its what the author wishes to discuss. IMHO, anyway!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-29-2005 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by sidelined, posted 04-29-2005 12:13 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by sidelined, posted 04-29-2005 12:33 PM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 301 (203909)
04-30-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by lost-apathy
04-30-2005 1:17 AM


Re: Observations, Philosophy, and Lost Apathy
Adding my two cents to what Sylas has already said......Did you read the previous post by Sylas? Did it stir you up so as to want to actually find out more of what he suggests? Do you yearn to meet Eta Carinae or to see what he has to say?
lost-apathy writes:
It's kind of like how i want to become a famous musician. I tell myself i know I will someday and if i just pursue what I want, I will get it.
Yes...if you truly want to be or do something, you will eventually achieve your goal. But there are no shortcuts. I grew up in High School with a lot of friends who were wannabe musicians. They wanted the image that the rock stars of the time had. They wanted the girls to look at them in awe! They wanted to be cool! What they did NOT want to do, hoever, was study guitar or take music lessons. More than that, they did not want to even practice much! As it turns out, one of them is now a musician. He took the steps. He took lessons. He paid the price and found that it was harder than he ever thought yet worth every minute! Music is still a hobby for him, but it is a hobby of love!
lost-apathy writes:
I am actually going to start college soon, and am actually wondering what major to pursue.
Which ones seem interesting to you? List two or three and we will discuss each one.
lost-apathy writes:
I am not very knowledgable about relativity, but I doubt anyone here on the forums knows the math to general relativity making us all somewhat ignorant to the topic.
Translation, as I hear it:
I am no Einstein, but who is? I am challenging you to accept my ideas or to respectfully challenge me and make me think!
Like I said before, if you feel an urge to really learn about science, you will need to get busy as Sylas suggests. If you feel that although you respect Sylas, Ned, and the rest of the guys for taking time to talk yet you have no real interest in checking out what they say and whether they know anything or not, you will probably not be a candidate for science.
I am somewhat intelligent, but I know better than to question science based on my own speculations. That is why I never question scientific theories. I DO often challenge religious or philosophical assumptions because I know just enough to have a point..weak though it often is!
lost-apathy writes:
As to what to study, maybe you can point me in the right direction I honestly really don't know.
Well....what do you want to talk about next? This is your thread and your original topic centered on you questioning the speculations of science. Do you want to go another route? How about Philosophy? How about God and Spirituality? If need be, we can possibly start another thread, although if you just have a point or two to make, we can finish discussing it here.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-30-2005 06:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by lost-apathy, posted 04-30-2005 1:17 AM lost-apathy has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 60 of 301 (203918)
04-30-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Sylas
04-30-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Observations, Philosophy, and Lost Apathy
I read something somewhere where the author theorized that by definition, the singularity at the start of it all was a realm where everything was in the same place at the same time.
Beyond that, the speculations require some appreciation of theoretical physics, which I never was very good at!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Sylas, posted 04-30-2005 8:45 AM Sylas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Sylas, posted 04-30-2005 9:37 AM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 152 of 301 (298528)
03-27-2006 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
03-26-2006 9:54 PM


Re: Application Of Alternative Viewpoint
Buzsaw writes:
Even Feyman admits that some of what he believes doesn't make sense to him in an on line lecture I listened to a few years ago.
Thats good to hear! If I as a Christian can admit that some of what I believe does not make sense to me, and if a wise man such as Feynman can say likewise, I feel that there is hope for me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 03-26-2006 9:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 202 of 301 (299974)
04-01-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by cavediver
03-29-2006 5:35 PM


Topic Synopsis:
The author of this topic, lost-apathy, has long since stopped posting here at EvC....so we need to keep in mind that this topic is currently a bit of a runaway train!
Let me read through the posts and comment on points that some of our active members have brought up:
Chioptera writes:
Here is a brief (and probably inaccurate) description of Big Bang. I welcome any corrections from those who actually have any knowledge of this subject.
It is an observational fact that the spectra of distant galaxies are red shifted. It is a standard interpretation of such a red shift that these galaxies are receding from us.
It is an observational fact that the amount of the redshift is proportional to their distance from us. A reasonable interpretation is that the universe itself is expanding. This is reasonable since General Relativity, a well-verified scientific theory, itself makes the prediction that the universe must either be expanding or contracting -- unless one adds an ad hoc kluge to prevent it.
So, assuming that the universe is expanding, we can then, mentally, "run the clock backwards" to see what the universe was like in the past. Well, galaxies must have been closer in the past. The universe must have been denser, and, using the known laws of physics, we can determine that the universe was hotter in the past.
Eventually, we get to a point that the universe was so dense and so hot that the known laws of physics are known to be inadequate to accurately describe the universe. At this point, we cannot continue to extrapolate backwards, and so we can only guess at what the universe may have been like, what processes may have been occurring.
These are not idle speculations -- we can test whether there is any validity to this theory.
For instance, if the universe is really expanding, it must have been very hot in the distant past. If it were very hot in the distant past, the universe must have been filled with a "blackbody radiation" that was indicative of this situation. As the universe expanded to our present day, this radiation, by our known laws of physics, must have retained its blackbody temperature, but "cool" down, becoming indicative of a cooler temperture: it must be mostly microwave radiation.
In other words, if Big Bang is correct, the universe must be filled with this microwave radiation. We do, in fact, observe this radiation -- a confirmation of a prediction of this theory, in the best traditions of science.
What the Big Bang does not do is describe the actual beginning of the universe, if it does indeed have a beginning. As I have stated in other threads, our present laws of physics are not adequate to describe the universe before a certain time after the creation. Right now scientists are trying to improve our understanding of the laws of physics so that we can understand the universe at these earlier times, but for now any discussion of the origin of the universe can only be speculation.
It may always be only speculation. It may be that our knowledge of the laws of science will always be inadequate to understand the nature of the origin of the universe, if it does have an origin.
Interesting! So the Big Bang doe NOT describe the actual beginning of the universe?? Man! I learn something new when I listen to other people!
Modulous writes:
One superpowerful entity that betrays explanation is an entity too far. I am only positing one entity - reality.
That is why Cosmological discussions are better suited to the scientific method.
Chioptera writes:
If the universe has no cause, then there would be no way to explain how it came to be since it would simply exist.
Same with all of our ideas. If our ideas had no cause, there would be no way to explain the logic of them. (or the illogic)
cavediver writes:
We (as in cosmologists and theoretical physicists) do not believe the universe came from nothing. Such a thing, as you say, makes little sense and is not part of the theory, despite what is said. All that exists of natural existence is within the universe.
All beginnings and ends, and their in-betweens, exist within the universe. The universe itself just is. It is the entirety of existence.
The Big Bang simply represents a point in the universe where there can be no "before", just as the North Pole is the place where there can be no "further north". There may well be a "South Pole" or Big Crunch (though it looks less likely these days) which is the point where there is no "after". But before, after and in-between do not apply to the universe itself. It just is.
So we are talking about a superset within which is every single thought, all matter, all anti-matter, every theological, psychological, sociological, anthropological, and...in short...human reality?
This message has been edited by Phat, 03-31-2006 10:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by cavediver, posted 03-29-2006 5:35 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2006 12:44 AM Phat has not replied

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