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Author Topic:   Why is the Intelligent Designer such an idiot?
Percy
Member
Posts: 19062
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 31 of 50 (478192)
08-12-2008 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by onifre
08-12-2008 6:10 PM


Re: How I See It
onifre writes:

The OP is in regards to the hands-on Diety that designed us to specifics, in that respect I agree that it is a poor design. But lets also note the fact that if such a Designer simply had the desire for LIFE to survive then He/She nailed it.

Yup!

I wouldn't call it perfect, but if designed it's one damn fine one.

--Percy


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1034 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 32 of 50 (478195)
08-12-2008 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rahvin
08-12-2008 3:10 PM


Re: Unappreciative Blasphemy Thread
Hi, Rahvin.

Rahvin writes:

Your approach is one of apologetics, where you begin with the conclusion (humanity was designed) and look for supporting evidence while either ignoring contradictory evidence or trying to "interpret" it in such a way that supports your premade conclusion.

I was under the impression that the point of this thread was to start with the assumption that we were designed and discuss what this implies about the Designer. If that's not correct, I apologize for my comments, because they clearly didn't meet the intent of the thread.

Rahvin writes:

The data we do have suggests that an intelligent designer would not design anything like the human body.

I don’t think we can make any inferences at all about what a Designer would do, unless we first make a judgment call as the intention of the design. For example, human designers made the game “MouseTrap,” which was intentionally given dozens of possible sources of failure as a mechanic of the game. That doesn’t mean the designers of that game were incompetent: any one of them could probably have designed a mouse trap that effectively catches mice, but they chose not to for the purposes of the game.

Your argument effectively states that optimal physical performance is the only possible purpose for design, and I don't see any reason why we should make that assumption.

Rahvin writes:

There are just too many obviously inefficient, harmful, or simply risky design features in the human body to say that it in any way coincides with an "intelligent" design.

But, this automatically rules out a lot of possible Designer psyches: for instance, a Designer that delights in seeing mortal beings come to harm would be fully consistent with these design features, and it wouldn’t have to be incompetent. Also, a Designer whose intention in giving us imperfection is to teach us how to take care of things (like our bodies) is also consistent with the given information.

On what basis do you exclude these explanations in your assessment of the Designer?

Rahvin writes:

We have not as yet designed a superior immune system to that of the human body...but most of our creations don't need to fight disease. We have not been able as yet to create a sentient being, but that's not the part in question.

I guess I would have to have added that "as yet" part to make my previous statements compatible with my personal beliefs, too. But (again, assuming that there is a Designer), the fact that the Designer could make eyes millions of years before we made a camera is a good indication that it is at least ahead of us. Percy brought up the fact that we still haven’t been able to make what the Designer assumably did make, which clearly indicates that we aren’t at the Designer’s level (yet).


Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 50 (478204)
08-12-2008 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Granny Magda
08-12-2008 1:26 PM


Re: Blasphemy
Granny, if your wonderfully designed kidneys are failing it's not the fault of the kidneys. It's likely something relative (abe: to) your lifestyle and the good ole American diet.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Granny Magda, posted 08-12-2008 1:26 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2008 10:41 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 36 by anglagard, posted 08-12-2008 10:43 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Granny Magda, posted 08-13-2008 9:42 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2018
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 34 of 50 (478208)
08-12-2008 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 9:59 PM


Re: Blasphemy
Granny, if your wonderfully designed kidneys are failing it's not the fault of the kidneys. It's likely something relative (abe: to) your lifestyle and the good ole American diet.

Gee you'd think the alleged "intellegent" designer would be able to design kidneys that would function no matter what lifestlye and/or diet they're subjected too. Just one more example of his/her incompentence I guess.


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 9:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 10:53 PM DrJones* has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 50 (478209)
08-12-2008 10:42 PM


The Biblically Designed Human
The Biblical designer designed the human body and soul to live forever. The Genesis fall lowered the physical phase of that to several hundred years. The post flood atmosphere then lowered that to an average of 70.

The elements and other properties of body and soul never cease to exist. Thus the resurrection of the just and the unjust.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by anglagard, posted 08-12-2008 10:47 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 41 by Coyote, posted 08-13-2008 12:17 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 42 by cavediver, posted 08-13-2008 3:48 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 36 of 50 (478212)
08-12-2008 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 9:59 PM


Buz Knows More than Anybody about Medicine
Buzsaw writes:

Granny, if your wonderfully designed kidneys are failing it's not the fault of the kidneys.

Can't speak for granny but how would you know? Are you even able to mentally conceive of mild birth defects?

It's likely something relative (abe: to) your lifestyle and the good ole American diet.

Yeah Buz, tell us your lifestyle/diet cures for Down's Syndrome, Porphyria, Tay-Sachs, and ALS.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 37 of 50 (478213)
08-12-2008 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 10:42 PM


Re: The Biblically Designed Human
Buz writes:

The Biblical designer designed the human body and soul to live forever. The Genesis fall lowered the physical phase of that to several hundred years. The post flood atmosphere then lowered that to an average of 70.

This is a science thread. Please provide evidence of this unsupported assertion in the appropriate venue.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 10:42 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 11:03 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 50 (478216)
08-12-2008 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by DrJones*
08-12-2008 10:41 PM


Re: Blasphemy
Gee you'd think the alleged "intellegent" designer would be able to design kidneys that would function no matter what lifestlye and/or diet they're subjected too. Just one more example of his/her incompentence I guess.

Mmm, like if your automobile's crank case is filled with kerosene which it was not designed for, you'd blame the incompetent maker for the breakdown. Yah, Jonesy, that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? ;)


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2008 10:41 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2008 10:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2018
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 39 of 50 (478217)
08-12-2008 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 10:53 PM


Re: Blasphemy
Mmm, like if your automobile's crank case is filled with kerosene which it was not designed for, you'd blame the incompetent maker for the breakdown

But the designer of my automobile is only an imperfect creation, and thus can't forsee every eventuality. Her design is also constrained by multiple factors relating to the production of my car. The alleged "intellegent" designer is supposedly more knowledgeable than us and operates with no limitations, unless you're proposing that our designer is imperfect as well?

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 10:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 50 (478221)
08-12-2008 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by anglagard
08-12-2008 10:47 PM


Re: The Biblically Designed Human
Anglagard, I said "The Biblical designer......" That's what the record implies as to how mankind was designed. The Biblical designer seems to be implicated here in this thread to some degree.

If you have a problem with my message, there's a forum thread for that purpose.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by anglagard, posted 08-12-2008 10:47 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 41 of 50 (478222)
08-13-2008 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 10:42 PM


Re: The Biblically Designed Human
The Biblical designer designed the human body and soul to live forever. The Genesis fall lowered the physical phase of that to several hundred years. The post flood atmosphere then lowered that to an average of 70.

You forgot to say Amen after your statement.

I say this because your statement is pure religious dogma (in the Science Forum no less), and it is without a single shred of scientific evidence to back it up. In fact, it is contradicted by mountains of scientific evidence.

Note tagline...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 10:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1979 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 42 of 50 (478235)
08-13-2008 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
08-12-2008 10:42 PM


Re: The Biblically Designed Human
The Biblical designer designed the human body and soul to live forever. The Genesis fall lowered the physical phase of that to several hundred years. The post flood atmosphere then lowered that to an average of 70.

Buz - pre-fall, what would have happened in adam had fallen out of a tree? From 100ft high? Or simply tripped over and landed on a sharp protruding stick? What stopped him choking on his fruit? Were his eyes actually well-designed at this stage, without a blind-spot? Did he get back-ache? And if he took a knife, and gave a local chimpanzee a good shave, would he have said to God - 'huh, why did you make me look just like that thing???'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 08-12-2008 10:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by kongstad, posted 08-13-2008 6:08 AM cavediver has not yet responded

kongstad
Member (Idle past 1206 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 43 of 50 (478239)
08-13-2008 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by cavediver
08-13-2008 3:48 AM


Re: The Biblically Designed Human
cavediver writes:

And if he took a knife, and gave a local chimpanzee a good shave, would he have said to God - 'huh, why did you make me look just like that thing???'

And he would have replied "I made you in my image" ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by cavediver, posted 08-13-2008 3:48 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3295 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 44 of 50 (478242)
08-13-2008 6:17 AM


The eye
I have been told upteen times about how amazing the human eye is, and thus it is a great argument for a creator.

Let me tell you the eye is a freakin disaster.

I have recurring conreal abrasions in both eyes and it totally cripples you when an abrasion recurs.

I have never felt pain like it and I have ruptured both cruciate ligaments in my left knee and had reconstructive surgery to replace them.

A tiny little abrasion on anyone's eye puts you completely out of it for about 3 days, there's bugger all you can do. You cannot close that eye and read or watch TV with the other eye, any light at all is agony, and doesn't matter what pain relief you are given it makes no difference.

I had laser treatment 3 years ago and I am fortunate to now have 20/20 vision, which apparently is an excellent result for someone over the age of 40, so it looks as if mankind is correcting a lot of the 'creators' mistakes.

If we were created, then the creator is a retard.

Edited by Brian, : spelling


bluegenes
Member (Idle past 813 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 50 (478243)
08-13-2008 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
08-12-2008 5:19 PM


Omphalism - I insist!
Percy writes:

And given that they never leave any evidence of their handiwork behind they must be extremely clever, even going to the extreme of designing in a way that precisely resembles evolution, including DNA sequences.

That's the most important sentence in your post, Percy. If there are interventionist designers, then they design within the parameters of evolutionary possibility, and they have to be doing this deliberately.

You could have a million designed planets without one giving the appearance of natural causes that this one has. There's absolutely no reason why design should resemble evolution, unless it were designed to do so. There's no necessity for designers to design in nested hierarchies, and no reason why a designed planet should give the impression of having such things.

The I.D. people should not blame mainstream scientists for dismissing their ideas about design. They should blame the designers for designing in a way intended to delude observers. They should offer prayers to the designers to help them in their cause:

"Dear designers, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy names. Please give us some useful anomalies, either living or fossilized. If we could discover living marsupials in Europe, or rabbit fossils in the Precambrian, it would be a great help to us, the faithful. And please stop sticking transitional-looking fossils all over the place, as they encourage the infidel, as does all this D.N.A. homology."

The designers consistently refuse to bless their worshippers with this thing called evidence, strangely. They're so successful at concealing themselves, it's just as if they're figments of their followers' imaginations. ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 08-12-2008 5:19 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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