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Author Topic:   COSMOLOGY
rueh
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 121 of 159 (489651)
11-28-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 6:49 PM


John I have read plenty of Hawking. The thing is I am not talking to Hawking. I am talkling to you. If you would like to recripicate, we can have a back and forth conversation. If you are just going to paste content from other sites it does no good. I don't get any of your insight and all it ultimatly does is differ the conversation. I appreciate the information you posted and will read it when I have the time. In the mean time I would appreciate an answer instead. At which point along the orbit of the sun, can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe? At which point in our orbit of the milkyway can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe?

Edited by rueh, : No edit. Thought better of it.


'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 6:49 PM johnfolton has responded

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 122 of 159 (489653)
11-28-2008 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 9:12 PM


DevilsAdvocate,

Thanks for warning me about the book however it used the same quote as the creationists website. right? I'd have to get a subscription to read that article in astronomy that from the surface information sounds like multipole vectors present in the CMB is whats aligning the universe to the earth. right?

P.S. I'm planning on getting a subscription instead to Prophecy in the News which is bringing prophecies into the alignments of the heavens, etc...Just this Sunday november 30 or is Dec 1st 2008 Jupiter and Venus has a conjunction with the earth. right? Is this one of them signs? That Christians are commanded to watch is it like the wisemen that followed the alignment of the stars of the heavens to Bethlehem.

The book Witness of the Stars is available at Prophecy in the news, etc...If you click on Friday they talk about the meteor that just hit Canada.

Witness Of The Stars
Book by E. W. Bullinger

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/

The Jupiter Venus conjunction coming this Sunday Monday, etc...

http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/t/36508.aspx

jf

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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 Message 117 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 123 of 159 (489654)
11-28-2008 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 10:12 PM


The Jupiter Venus conjunction coming this Sunday Monday, etc...

So. This happens about every 12-14 years. Maybe less time. Conjunctions are simply due to two planets appearing near each other relative to our sight.

Edited by bluescat48, : added line


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 124 of 159 (489657)
11-28-2008 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 8:33 PM


Hubble did not propose a Big Bang theory. In fact it was Georges LemaƮtre, a Belgian Catholic priest and professor of astrophysics, that proposed the Big Bang theory (though it was Fred Hoyle not LemaƮtre who coined the term "Big Bang" for this theory).

So we agree the christian big bang was already out there before Hubble put his garbage version out there. right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 8:33 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 125 of 159 (489659)
11-28-2008 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by rueh
11-28-2008 9:48 PM


At which point along the orbit of the sun, can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe? At which point in our orbit of the milkyway can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe?

I think your looking at it all wrong look at it more like all light is redshifting from us thus your in the center. If light was blue shifting you would not be in the center. right?
If any of you want to understand the signs in the heavens which is about God talking to us by the motions of the stars just check it out.

I was just trying to make one point that the earth is in the center, that Hubble knew this. Now that the point has been made I have nothing else to say for jchardy sake. bye...

Message 7 on this thread for links to Gentry's video redshift discussion, and Setterfields video that too questions redshift, etc...

whatever,

jf

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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 Message 130 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 9:50 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 126 of 159 (489665)
11-29-2008 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 11:16 PM


JohnFolton - no more please
Please stop posting in this thread JohnF. Thanks.
This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 127 of 159 (489667)
11-29-2008 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 10:56 PM


Big Bang Christian?
So we agree the christian big bang was already out there before Hubble put his garbage version out there. right?

There never was a "christian" big bang. there was just the big bang hypothesis. Which was confirmed when Hubble made his discoveries. And subsequently further confirmed when the cosmic microwave background radiation was found.

Oh, and would you mind pointing out exactly what part of Hubble's findings were "garbage"?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 128 of 159 (489669)
11-29-2008 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 10:56 PM


double post. Sorry,

Edited by Huntard, : 'twas a double post! Oh noes!


I hunt for the truth
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 129 of 159 (489690)
11-29-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 11:16 PM


I am sorry I know I said I wouldn't write on this thread anymore but I need to correct JF's false conclusions and stop him from spreading his stupidity. Let me explain.

JF writes:

I think your looking at it all wrong look at it more like all light is redshifting from us thus your in the center. If light was blue shifting you would not be in the center. right?

No, again use the simple analogy of a balloon and place little sticky images of galaxies on really slow moving ants on that balloon. The surface of the balloon represents the 3 dimensions of space (we will exclude the dimension of time in this analogy). Now start blowing up that balloon. If you blow up that balloon faster than the speed those ants are moving, what happens to those little sticky galaxies stuck on the backs of those ants? They all accelerate exponentially further apart from each other (red shift) as the distance between them increases, right? Only the ants really near our own ant (the Milky Way) (or any other ants in close proximity) can slowly overcome the rapid expansion of the balloon and close the distance between us (blue shift). However even in this case, space is still stretching and these close by ants have to walk faster towards us than the expansion of the balloon to close the distance to our own ant.

This is a crude analogy of what is happening. Basically the expansion of the universe (blowing up of the balloon) overcomes the movement of the individual ants (the gravitational attraction of nearby galaxies).

If we shifted our position to any other galaxy in the universe we would still see the phenomena of galaxies in close proximity being gravitationally pulled towards each other (blue shifted) while those further away from us being carried away by the expansion of the space-time fabric of the universe (red shift).

Is there a center of the surface of a balloon (or a sphere)? No. The expansion of the balloon is analogous to the stretching of the space-time fabric of the universe. The apparent motion of galaxies going away from us i.e. red shifting is really the stretching of space-time itself.

Let me know if this makes sense or I can continue to clarify.

I was just trying to make one point that the earth is in the center, that Hubble knew this. Now that the point has been made I have nothing else to say for jchardy sake. bye...

No, you never provided any evidence that Hubble "knew" the Earth was at the center of the universe. Even if he did (which he didn't) what bearing does than have on cosmology now? People also thought the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around the Earth at one point in history. What does this have to do with anything?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 11:16 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by V-Bird, posted 11-29-2008 11:05 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 130 of 159 (489691)
11-29-2008 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 11:16 PM


If any of you want to understand the signs in the heavens which is about God talking to us by the motions of the stars just check it out.

So you are advocating astrology? I thought that Christianity specifically condemned practicing astrology?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
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 Message 125 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 11:16 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 131 of 159 (489694)
11-29-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by DevilsAdvocate
11-29-2008 9:50 AM


So you are advocating astrology? I thought that Christianity specifically condemned practicing astrology?

Evidently, to them, one pseudoscience is as good as another.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 132 of 159 (489698)
11-29-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by DevilsAdvocate
11-29-2008 9:35 AM


DA.
"...us being carried away by the expansion of the space-time fabric of the universe... "

"...red shifting is really the stretching of space-time itself."

What are you actually saying when you use the terms 'space-time and 'space-time fabric'

To me 'space-time' is short-hand for all the energies that fill the cosmos, but 'fabric' implies a substance in and of itself, an aether by another name, which we know is not the case, there is not one cohesive singular space-time fabric, there is no difference in 'expansion', 'inflation' or stretching of space-time, it is merely a complex interaction of energies and that it is in constant motion, this motion is seen as red or blue shifts when we view them from here [or elsewhere] I'm sure you agree and that it should be pointed out as often as possible that there really is no 'substance' that is space-time.

Space-time only curves or bends [or anything else for that matter] because the word space-time is a coverall word for a multitude of complex interactions of various energies some of which are in the form of mass, light, gravity etc etc.

I personally find the word space-time the most mis-understood in the lexicon of cosmology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 9:35 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 11:47 AM V-Bird has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 133 of 159 (489701)
11-29-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by V-Bird
11-29-2008 11:05 AM


Re: DA.
What are you actually saying when you use the terms 'space-time and 'space-time fabric'

To me 'space-time' is short-hand for all the energies that fill the cosmos, but 'fabric' implies a substance in and of itself, an aether by another name, which we know is not the case, there is not one cohesive singular space-time fabric, there is no difference in 'expansion', 'inflation' or stretching of space-time, it is merely a complex interaction of energies and that it is in constant motion, this motion is seen as red or blue shifts when we view them from here [or elsewhere] I'm sure you agree and that it should be pointed out as often as possible that there really is no 'substance' that is space-time.

Yes, I agree. The term "space-time fabric" is just a analogous figure of speach it does not mean there is an actual "substance" or "aether" call space-time. Space and time are intricately linked mathematical dimensions as proposed by Albert Einstein in his theories of relativity. In other words space time is a mathematic model or construct not a physical "substance".

I prefer to use the term "stretching" instead of "expanding" as pertaining to the universe because "expanding" implies that the universe is expanding into something outside it which is clearly not the case. The universe is a closed system and by definition of spacetime there is nothing outside of it. There is no outside. Don't get confused, when we talk about a "hypothetical" multiverse this is not talking about 4 dimensional spacetime outside of our universe but rather additional dimensions in which the 4 dimensions of spacetime are encapsulated.

This is conteruntuitive to mose people but you have to think outside the box (no pun intended).

A good book I have read recently which illustrates these principles well is Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality". Also Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the Tenth Dimension" is another good read. Also study Einstein's Theories of Relativity (both General and Special Relativity).

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by V-Bird, posted 11-29-2008 11:05 AM V-Bird has responded

Replies to this message:
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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 134 of 159 (489707)
11-29-2008 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by DevilsAdvocate
11-29-2008 11:47 AM


Re: DA.
I note that you use a quote from Carl Sagan in your bit at the bottom, he was not y cup of tea, but he was very accurate in some things, he used the term cosmos for what the lazy call the universe and his thinking on that was very clear, we do not know what is beyond what we know to be existing, this is the cosmos, it is a deceit to call this the universe, it's not.

The universe includes the void beyond the cosmos as well as the cosmos itself and the universe includes the FTL cosmos in it also.

The universe you write of is actually a very blinkered view of the real universe and is bettered referred to as Sagan did and would himself as the cosmos.

All the words you wish to use mean the same, the cosmos is increasing in size, it is finite and is expanding into the infinite [nothing] of the void.

As to thinking outside the box, that description is far closer to your written statements than my own, can you see that?

I studied GR and SR from about the age of 11 and refer to it regularly so as to not get a slanted perspective of more 'in the box' thinking.

You must accept this, the cosmos is expanding, growing, inflating, stretching into the void, there are no parallel universes, just the single infinite one, there are no time warps and the only other dimension is the FTL cosmos which effectively wraps all the four dimensions we have into a single 'force dimension'.

So there are just 5 dimensions, not 10,11,20,22 or 23, they are simply tensors to allow us to conjure sub-light maths to explain FTL action, accept FTL cosmology and they fall by the wayside, just like the aether of old, flogiston and all the theist clap-trap that exists to help the scared, perplexed and bewildered of this world cope with their lives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 11:47 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 135 of 159 (489724)
11-29-2008 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Huntard
11-29-2008 4:59 AM


Re: Big Bang Christian?
Hi Huntard,

There never was a "christian" big bang. there was just the big bang hypothesis. Which was confirmed when Hubble made his discoveries.

Hubble observed the redshift indicating expantion, not the BB.

And subsequently further confirmed when the cosmic microwave background radiation was found.

I may not be understanding what you wrote here but, the CMBR is explained by the Big Bang theory, it does not confirm the BBT.

Oh, and would you mind pointing out exactly what part of Hubble's findings were "garbage"?

JF is talking about the same kind of crap he's talked about before, Hubbles (redshift/universe expanding) not being the correct assessment of Hubbles observable work. It's just ramblings though, he will show you absolutely nothing as far as evidence is concerned, he will also mine quote phyicists and take them completely out of context or misunderstand what is being said.

I think im going to take cavedivers advise that he gave me on another thread and not engage in talks with these guys, its a word mess that is basically nonsense.


"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


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Replies to this message:
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