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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
Phat
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Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 8 of 221 (375379)
01-08-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cocytus
01-07-2007 6:12 PM


Need there be an ultimatum?
cocytus writes:
1) That knowledge itself, for humans, can and should only be obtained through proper channels. Those channels being, namely, God and God's vicars (Pope, priest, minister, pastor etc.)
Phat writes:
for a believer, it is good to pray for wisdom, but I don't think that God expects us to be helpless. We were given brains for a reason.
1.a) As a corollary, all knowledge derived from other sources (namely our senses, either terrestrial or modified via technology) must not be trusted. Only God's word is real in the sense that God could change anything at any time.
thats an extreme position, but not a majority view.
2) It is therefore the position of creationists (and other Christians of the same ilk) that the whole of reality must be bound within the Bible. It is thus acceptable, within the faith, to deny any scientific finding that cannot be easily proof-texted.
what do you mean "other Christians of the same ilk"? what ilk?
3) The most important consequence is that Christians desire to stand in the way of science and scientists because their knowledge is somehow inferior to God's.
This, to me, is evil incarnate. If the world can be a better place, and science has the tools to make it so, then there should be no leap of faith that is required of any individual to stand on the side of progress (progress in this sense can be synonymous with "good," so there is an appropriate juxtaposition).
My position is largely in the realm of theory, but I believe it is important to consider whether religion itself is causing humanity to stagnate at a time when anything BUT stagnation is what we need.
This argument thus asks the question: "Does religion make good people do bad things?" In this case "bad things" refers to standing in the way of progress.
so what do we do? Outlaw religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 6:12 PM Cocytus has replied

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 Message 9 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 2:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 172 of 221 (387609)
03-01-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by bujitsu
03-01-2007 1:08 PM


Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
Perhaps we need to actually define the difference between facts and beliefs.
A fact is something that is undeniable...like gravity. There are not different schools of science that approach gravity differently.
bujitsu writes:
But, there are plenty of scientists that have looked at the evidence and believe it shows other truths. Like it or not NOT ALL SCIENTISTS agree with you.
Once you know jar, you will understand his philosophy.
Explain to me a couple of things.
1) Is Jesus a fact or a belief?
2) Is Biblical Inerrency a fact or a belief?
3) How is a fact defined as such?
4) How is a belief defined as such?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:08 PM bujitsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 2:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 177 of 221 (387631)
03-01-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by bujitsu
03-01-2007 2:32 PM


Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
bujitsu writes:
I think most of your questions can honestly have many different answers, or at least many different interpretations.
Is this true of all knowledge? In other words, is truth a relative concept or an absolute reality?
FYI -- I believe that truth is absolute internally as a belief yet is relative in regards to proof for others.
I will say, however, that some facts are defined as facts because they are unarguable. The law of gravity is one example.
Some things we just don't know. How the universe began is one example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 2:32 PM bujitsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 5:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
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