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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 221 (375424)
01-08-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cocytus
01-08-2007 2:44 PM


Probably should check a few facts.
The example that comes to mind is, to be clich, stem cell research.
I think that we'll both agree that the majority of Christians are on the "nay" side of this issue. They are certainly the most vocal.
Well there is also a very large percentage of Christians that favor stem cell research. One of the leading stem cell research centers in the US is the Stem Cell Center at Saint Luke's Episcopal Hospital.
It is true that you will find a very vocal Christian presence opposing many issues, from equal rights for all to stem cell research to stewardship of the environment to foreign policy.
There is also though a vocal Christian presence that will and does stand right beside you decrying the exact issues you raise. Consider, as another example, The Christian Alliance for Progress.
Also consider the statement signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy in the Clergy Project where they say ...
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.
I would agree that today, as has been the case throughout history, there is a struggle between knowledge and ignorance, and that the side of ignorance has a a vested interest in keeping their flock ignorant. But do not be surprised if you find that some of your supporters in the fight against ignorance turn out to be Theist and even Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 2:44 PM Cocytus has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 221 (375858)
01-10-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
01-10-2007 6:41 AM


On Stem Cell Research
I need to point out that folk seem to be making assumptions based on a False Dilemma.
The VAST majority of religions are NOT opposed to stem cell research. Even the Roman Catholic Church is not opposed to stem cell research.
The issue comes up over "FETAL tissue".
As I pointed back in Message 12, one of the major centers for stem cell research in the US is St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital.
The whole issue may well become moot anyway. As we learn more, for example stem cells from amniotic fluid and from umbilical cord blood may remove even the objections that revolve around the questions related to the sanctity of a fetus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 221 (375869)
01-10-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Straggler
01-10-2007 12:22 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
In the wider context any willingness to accept the notion that God is responsible for any natural phenomenon, from the beginning of the universe, the evolution of the eye, the motion of the planets, the nature of consciousness etc. etc. is a potential barrier to scientific progress.
To seek to understand such phenomenon necessarily presumes that there is a natural explanation to be had so invoking God is a barrier to progress in that sense.
Again, that is not something related to Religion but only certain cults within Religion. Look at the following sources.
Pastoral Letter from the Rt. Rev. Bennett J. Sims, Episcopal Bishop of Atlanta.
The Clergy Project which is an open letter signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy on teaching the Theory of Evolution and the relationship of Science and Theology.
A Catechism of Creation: An Episcopal Understanding which was prepared by the Committee on Science, Technology and Faith.
Vatican response on the possibility of stem cells from amniotic fluid.
Religious convictions in the US are not monolithic. There is vast variety in the positions held and many religious folk in the US fully support stem cell research, even supporting fetal tissue stem cell research.
As I said back in Message 12
I would agree that today, as has been the case throughout history, there is a struggle between knowledge and ignorance, and that the side of ignorance has a a vested interest in keeping their flock ignorant. But do not be surprised if you find that some of your supporters in the fight against ignorance turn out to be Theist and even Christians.
The issue is not religion versus science, but rather some sects versus the rest of the world, scientists and theists alike.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 221 (375888)
01-10-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Cocytus
01-10-2007 1:42 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
Scientists state that, through further study of the properties of stem cells, certain diseases and injuries might become curable or treatable. Scientists further explain what stem cells are (various types, but some come from gametes). That's about it from scientists. I, as an atheist, have no reason to think that there SHOULDN'T be research in this field. Sounds like a winner to me.
But I as a Christian agree with you.
So where is the problem?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 221 (375917)
01-10-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
01-10-2007 2:42 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
The problem is that this research is banned in the US for irrational religious reasons.
But that is simply not true.
Even fetal stem cell research is not banned in the US. The only restriction right now is that Federal Funds cannot be used for Fetal Stem Cell Research.
As I pointed out back in Message 12 one of the major stem cell research centers in the US is St, Luke's Episcopal Hospital, both a US research institution and a religious one.
Also in the wider sense historically speaking faith and the reliance on God for explanations has acted as a barrier to scientific understanding. I fully reccommend the Beyond Belief lectures Percy has links to in the Evolution Podcast thread. Session 2 is the main one on this topic (how do I link to this..?) if you are interested.
But I have listened to them, even before it came up here. The fact is that not all religious folk oppose science. We have many scientists here at EvC that are also Theists, many Christian Theists.
There has always been opposition to science. There were those who opposed trains because man could not breath going 60 MPH. There were those who opposed the Theory of Gravity and I remember a wonderful cartoon from the period. Let me see if I can find a link to it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2007 2:42 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2007 3:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 221 (375965)
01-10-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Straggler
01-10-2007 3:29 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
However it is undeniable that a barrier to stem cell research has been put in place by the US government on irrational religious grounds. That is the sort of the problem that the OP I think was referring to.
Again, the barrier is Only on Federal Funding of Fetal Cell Research.
There is a problem and simply stating that it is not a problem for all those of faith does not change the fact that there is definitely a problem which has resulted in barriers to scientific progress (or at least the rate of said progress) in this area.
Again, that is not what I said. I agree that the Bush Administrations position is irrational and VERY much anti-science and even anti-humanity.
My point is that you seem to not realize that there are very religious people standing beside you agreeing with you about the threat posed by the religious conservative fundamentalists. The issue though is not religion versus science but rather Cultures of Ignorance versus everyone else.
In the US there is a vast movement encouraging Cultures of Ignorance. That includes all of the Young Earth Creationists, most of the Intelligent Design folk and many major political figures including the President of the US.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 221 (376019)
01-10-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Cocytus
01-10-2007 7:39 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
There is a vast movement of a culture of ignorance in the Islamic faith as well. The question might be asked: is it religion itself that causes these phenomena?
Well that is certainly a great question.
Since there are both Christians and Muslims on both sides of the issue, Christians and Muslims that support knowledge and science as well as Christians and Muslims that oppose knowledge and science, it is not simply Religion that is the key factor but rather some other factor.
So what is different between those religious folk that do not oppose science and those that do?
Are there other examples of a culture turning to Ignorance?
What about China when they turned their back on exploration and science and called back all their fleets and drew themselves inward?
What about the Cultural Revolution under Mao?
How about the movement back to an agrarian society under Pol Pot and under Stalin where intellectuals were taken out of the schools and sent to the fields or Siberia?
We always like to have simple answers.
Too bad the real world is often complex.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 01-11-2007 12:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 221 (376066)
01-10-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Rob
01-10-2007 10:50 PM


All Knowledge?
Please answer the question. Do you have all knowledge? It's a simple yes or no.
We have all the knowledge we have when we make decisions, and that is all we will ever have.
Accept and you become whole,
Bend and you straighten,
Empty and you fill,
Decay and you renew,
Want and you acquire,
Fulfill and you become confused.
The sage accepts the world
As the world accepts the Way;
He does not display himself, so is clearly seen,
Does not justify himself, so is recognized,
Does not boast, so is credited,
Does not pride himself, so endures,
Does not contend, so none contend against him.
The ancients said, "Accept and you become whole",
Once whole, the world is as your home.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 10:50 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 221 (376073)
01-10-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Rob
01-10-2007 11:00 PM


Re: All Knowledge?
So, based on the knowledge you have, please make a decision to tell us if you have all knowledge please.
I have all the knowledge I have, as I said. You having trouble reading?
Try rereading Message 56

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 221 (376085)
01-10-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rob
01-10-2007 11:20 PM


End of silly game playing
You keep asking totally irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the topic.
Is the knowledge you have equal to all the knowledge that there is? Are you omniscient?
That is as simple a question as there can be!
What does that have to do with "Christianity, Knowledge and Science?"
Sorry but I am trying to stick to the topic. Play your silly games with someone else.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:20 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:26 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 221 (376089)
01-10-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by anastasia
01-10-2007 11:02 PM


Getting kicked out of the GOE had nothing to do with knowledge.
Maybe,the knowledge WASN'T evil, but it had consequences, like getting kicked out of the GoE, just because they didn't know how to handle it yet.
The reason they were kicked out of the GOE was because GOD feared that they might eat from the Tree of Life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 58 by anastasia, posted 01-10-2007 11:02 PM anastasia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 221 (376091)
01-10-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rob
01-10-2007 11:26 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
Your question is silly, sophomoric and inane. Of course I do not have all knowledge.
I do have the knowledge I have at any given moment to make decisions. That is all that I have.
That is why we as Christians must support science. We cannot simply abdicate our responsibility to some imagined entity that supposedly knows all.
We are responsible for what we do. Any nonsense about "omniscience" is just blather, pointless drivel and totally unrelated to the topic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:26 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Cocytus, posted 01-11-2007 1:16 AM jar has replied
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 1:38 AM jar has replied
 Message 111 by DorfMan, posted 01-12-2007 9:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 221 (376160)
01-11-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rob
01-11-2007 1:38 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
I'm sorry Rob but everything after "And I think the most pertinent knowledge in that catagory is the fact that you do not have all knowledge." was just jabberwocky.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 1:38 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 8:15 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 221 (376162)
01-11-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Cocytus
01-11-2007 1:16 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
It seems to me that "the knowledge of good and evil," just HAVING that knowledge, is itself evil.
Why?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 01-11-2007 10:28 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 221 (376181)
01-11-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
01-11-2007 10:28 AM


Re: knowledge and scotness' point
Actually, I am replying to Percy in another thread basically on just that point.
There is a somewhat parallel thread going on right now on "Creationism IS a 'Cult'ural Movement!"
My position is that Biblical Creationism is just one indicator of a broader movement that believes that knowledge must either be limited or filtered.
I agree completely with the fact that we do not think and debate our actions and use our capabilities wisely. The search for wisdom to know how to make the right choice is perhaps the greatest task mankind faces. For that though, the Bible is no better a guide than the Tao Te Ching, I Ching, writings of Mencius, Confucius, the Buddha, the Qur'an, the Vedas, Canticle for Leibowitz, Huck Finn, Slaughterhouse Nine and a whole host of other sources.
All to often it seems we debate the wisdom of decisions after the fact instead of before. I believe that is a shame and an abrogation of our responsibility.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 01-11-2007 10:28 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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