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Author Topic:   Do We Live in an Infinite Universe?
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 60 (336261)
07-29-2006 5:21 AM


YES the UNIVERSE is INFINITE
Everything we know by some form of observation could be considered our universe with a lower case u. All that "IS" could be considered our Universe with a capital U. Our universe is actually a pocket of space-time or POST and all internal laws of physics (Newtonian and Quantum) will behave pretty much as expected within out POST because the relative Aetheric density of our known universe is behaving, as we would expect it to.
However our tiny little bubble or pocket in space that is made up of mass and energy and has the ability to interact with gravity, time, space, and light is nothing more than a point in space and time. An infinite Universe with an infinite number of POSTs like our little tiny universe is what is truly Infinite.
So insignificant it must make one feel. Well when I then look at a solar or lunar eclipse, a rainbow or the Aurora Borealis, or the fact that our planet is just at the right distance from the sun to give us both a winter and a summer I am forced to wonder the real question of Infinity.
Can something that is infinite be intelligently designed? To me I think more and more that it is just as plausible that an infinite intelligence could exist and create our little pocket of space and time as it could be for an 'infinite intelligence' to have created out tiny little planet all by itself?
So what came first the chicken or the egg?
Did the creator of infinity exist before infinity or is the creator of infinity a byproduct of the infinity that it created. OR if infinity is taken it the most true context that it can be taken there is no smallest piece of matter or smallest piece of energy or largest spec of matter or energy. There is no smallest division of time or space that is not divisible nor is there a largest segment of time or space that can not be made larger or longer.
Our POST, all we know about our universe, is likely traveling with speed through a much larger vacuum in space and along with most likely many other POSTs like ours they revolve around a central more dense center of density. Someday our POST will make contact with another POST and if the trajectories and speeds are opposite enough, the odds are that they will crash with a force and speed equivalent to they type of energy needed to vaporize all matter to an almost plasma state thus creating a pool of vaporized atoms to rebuild anew.

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 60 (336265)
07-29-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
07-27-2006 7:14 AM


Disagree that modern Space Time equations should not include the real gravitons
As far as Ether or Aether, it will be proven within 10-15 years to not only exist but to be the factor in the equation that ties the weak and strong subatomic forces to those of gravity and electromagnetism into a single unified field. Einstein stopped working on his Aetheric model not because he could disprove it but because he had many other things to work on. The proof of concept I think is easy. All we need is a cellular telephone satellite in orbit around the planet and a handful of equations showing the different amounts of energy required to keep it in orbit inside and outside of our local atmosphere.
Once we can include the relative Aetheric density of our atmosphere compared to those items orbiting our planet to other areas with different Aetheric density’s we will find the constant that dictates the overall relative electromagnet attraction between any two 3d objects residing in a 3d pool of an infinite number of other 3d objects of varying mass and density. My instinct tells me that it is a number very much like pie I think. I say this because all objects as they exist relative to any other object should not be mapped using Cartesian coordinates. The true laws of the universe do not hold true to Cartesian coordinates but instead to a coordinate mapping system based on selfcentrispherical spherical coordinates. All calculations as to the laws of physics need to be done based as a set of interacting spheres inside a larger sphere being affected to some degree of precision by every other spherical electromagnetic (or gravitational) field within the relative vicinity.
Newtonian Physics are close and works in most instances but if we really applied the scientific precision to our measurements that will become available over the next 1000 years right now we would see that other forces are at work that were never being taken into account. Quantum Mechanics and Particle Physics and the wave nature of energy and light also works in many instances. The bridge between the two will come to light once it becomes self-evident that all matter exerts electromagnetic interaction to all other matter and we can come up with the proper formula to include Relative Aetheric Density in the equations.
To explain in a different way lets say that the atmosphere around our planet grew outwards by 25,000 miles a day due to new gaseous particles being added to our atmosphere like oxygen, nitrogen, xenon, or radon, etc. As our outer atmosphere grew larger the overall attraction that our planet could exert on the moon would increase. Once the atmosphere reached the moon (or more likely well before that ) the gravitational attraction would have been so great that the moon would have collided into the Earth.
I say that it is not the mass of the combined atmosphere that would make our moon break orbit but the conductive nature of the particles that are increasing the relative attraction of our planet to the moon more as a conduit. So what I guess I am saying is that the graviton is not a unique particle but a part of all particles and all masses and the relative Aetheric density of any object as well as the relative Aetheric density between any two objects needs to be included in any equations that refers to what we thought we understood about Newtonian and Quantum Physics. And its more than just that. Every significant pocket of density needs to be included in the equations each exerting their own level of interference and attraction (or repulsion) against the two objects included as the primary participants in the equations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 07-27-2006 7:14 AM Percy has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 60 (338474)
08-08-2006 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by sidelined
08-08-2006 2:17 AM


Re: infinite universe
First things first. Our nine (or ten) planets revolve around our sun. Our sun is a star and our star is far from unique and is one of a trillion+ similar stars. Our solar system is far from unique and is one of a trillion+ similar solar systems.
Everything we know about our outer significant universe (that which scientific precision has allowed us to perceive looking outwards) is nothing more than a tiny little insignificant speck of nothingness in the true infinity of space and time.
Everything we know about our inner significant universe (that which scientific precision has allowed us to perceive looking inwards) is nothing more than a tiny little insignificant speck of nothingness in the true infinity of space and time.
Every speck, no matter how small or how large is as significantly insignificant as our planet, our solar system, our galaxy or any atom or any molecule, or any lepton or anything one trillion times smaller than a lepton.
There is no other logical conclusion and we will soon realize that anything that does not put our “big bang” within an earlier and larger pocket of space and time is absurd. Everything we know about our outer significant universe (our big bang) must be recognized as relevant to us and the possibility or probability of this occurrence being unique to our solar system is far beyond remote.
What is more likely? That we have in a very short time frame been able to reach a maximum amount of scientific precision that can ever possibly be obtained or more logically that all we know is just a drop in the bucket. (truth is that that the next level of understanding both inwards and outwards is so much smaller or so much larger that we may never obtain the precision to break the current self imposed barriers.
Our “big bang” was one of an infinite number of such events that have always occurred and will always occur at an infinite number of different levels. All we know is nothing more than all our current scientific precision can reveal. Evolution can take us to the next stage if we permit our species to coexist and our planet to continue to host a habitable environment.
I find it incomprehensible that there exists so much animosity and belligerence in the world so late in the game. The game will end soon if we don’t start making a team effort world wide to win as a species for the betterment of all species on this planet. We must stop thinking about states, cities, providences, and countries and start thinking about species and how we can do everything in our power to improve the quality of life for every species on our planet and in our outer significant universe or our tiny little insignificant pocket of space and time.
First things first. Our nine (or ten) planets revolve around our sun. Our sun is a star and our star is far from unique and is one of a trillion+ similar stars. Our solar system is far from unique and is one of a trillion+ similar solar systems.
Everything we know about our outer significant universe (that which scientific precision has allowed us to perceive looking outwards) is nothing more than a tiny little insignificant speck of nothingness in the true infinity of space and time.
Everything we know about our inner significant universe (that which scientific precision has allowed us to perceive looking inwards) is nothing more than a tiny little insignificant speck of nothingness in the true infinity of space and time.
Every speck, no matter how small or how large is as significantly insignificant as our planet, our solar system, our galaxy or any atom or any molecule, or any lepton or anything one trillion times smaller than a lepton.
There is no other logical conclusion and we will soon realize that anything that does not put our “big bang” within an earlier and larger pocket of space and time is absurd. Everything we know about our outer significant universe (our big bang) must be recognized as relevant to us and the possibilty or probablity of this occurence being unique to our solar system is far beyond remote.
What is more likely? That we have in a very short time frame been able to reach a maximum amount of scientific precision that can ever possibly be obtained or more logically that all we know is just a drop in the bucket. (truth is that that the next level of understanding both inwards and outwards is so much smaller or so much larger that we may never obtain the precision to break the current self imposed barriers.
Our “big bang” was one of an infinite number of such events that have always occurred and will always occur at an infinite number of different levels. All we know is nothing more than all our current scientific precision can reveal. Evolution can take us to the next stage if we permit our species to coexist and our planet to continue to host a habitable environment.
I find it incomprehensible that there exists so much animosity and belligerence in the world so late in the game. The game will end soon if we don’t start making a team effort world wide to win as a species for the betterment of all species on this planet. We must stop thinking about states, cities, providences, and countries and start thinking about species and how we can do everything in our power to improve the quality of life for every species on our planet and in our outer significant universe or our tiny little insignificant pocket of space and time will fail to evovle to the next level as a whole and end up in the pile with all the other discarded failed attempts that other habitbal plantes have maed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 08-08-2006 2:17 AM sidelined has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 60 (342661)
08-23-2006 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
08-18-2006 4:25 PM


Re: infinite universe
There are a few ways we will eventually be able to prove the actual infinity of the universe. I can think of three off the top of my head but I sure there are others. Tinnitus is one way. Every person I know actually has it in one degree or another. Almost anyone can sit in a quiet room and concentrate very hard on listening to silence and almost everyone can attest that there really is no true silence. But when a pattern can be detected in one ear or the other then the noise is no longer just noise. And when the pattern can originate in one ear then in the matter of minutes be heard in stereo (with or without harmony) well that would say something.
Or lets say by chance we manage to beat the odds and are still here in 20,000 or better yet 100,000 years. The increase in scientific precision both inwards and outwards let alone the number of different directions we would be mapping we could eventually find that there is a point on the outer shell of our universe where every few thousand years new matter crashes in and at the other direct end of the outer shell of our universe we find matter being lost and determine that the shell we can detect, our little pocket of space time, is in fact moving and has velocity. And once we can determine that our pocket of space time has velocity we can then prove its existence inside a larger pocket of space time thus invalidating the false conclusion that all time and all space came from a single cosmic event. We could then likewise conclude with a much greater certainty that our big bang is not a sole occurrence but an infinite number of such occurrences.
Or lastly from a closed environment known to contain no possible life yet provided with sufficient resources to maintain a habitable environment, someday our scientific precision might let us see the life that is being created an infinite number of times each second evolving into our known universe, known solely because of the scientific precision that could not detect life or matter from that which was just previously beyond the realm of our detection.
There is no smallest distance or largest distance. There is no smallest amount of time and there is no largest amount of time. There is no end in any straight line moving away from any point. There is no smallest amount of energy or largest amount of energy. Everything in the universe is significant to everything else based on its associative degree of relativity to each other. That does not mean that there is nothing larger or smaller, just that we have yet to develop the means to detect them.
If we can find some way to join together as a species for the sake of providing the optimal habitable environments for the greatest percentage of sentient beings for the longest possible length of time then that must be the true meaning of life.
... nipok

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 08-18-2006 4:25 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by nipok, posted 08-23-2006 5:16 AM nipok has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 60 (342664)
08-23-2006 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by nipok
08-23-2006 4:34 AM


Re: infinite universe
Lets say two atoms collide but in reality the two outer most electrons are likely to absorb the bulk of the impact. We see atoms bouncing off each other. When heated they bounce faster and when cooled they bounce slower. The sum of separate mass and separate energy is maintained but the intricacies of the atomic collision deserve much more attention. Electrons themselves travel in a high rate of relative speed around the nucleus so when two atoms collide and two electron shells make contact there is a large likelihood that two electrons are actually traveling at an even higher rate of relative speed to each other than the speed of their respective orbits. But electrons are no where near the smallest known particles of matter anymore, fermions, and bosons, leptons, quarks, and a whole mess of other particles are now documented but these elementary particles are a just a ruse.
They are only elementary because of scientific precision. It is idiotic to assume they are the smallest particles of matter and to be so arrogant as to think that our level of current detection is the best there can ever be. We must accept that someday we will find all the little things that are building blocks that make up the building blocks that make up fermions and bosons.
But back to crashing elementary particles for a moment. When two atoms collide it is the most elementary of particles that are actually colliding and if one subscribes to the common sense deduction that these collisions are made of smaller and smaller particles and within each subset of smaller particles the collisions are occurring at much greater relative velocities to each other to a point where I dare say that the relative velocities of two particles approach their relative speed of light and BANG
All matter relative to each distinct atom is intermixed and to us the atoms part as whole but what really happens? Would it not make more sense to conclude it more logical that parts of each atom no matter how small must have interchanged and as the atoms parted the relative electromagnetic attraction that binds atoms together pulled the matter back into one atom or the other (at a much much much much lower level I would venture to say then we may ever be able to detect with the greatest level of scientific precision we could hope to obtain in a trillion years of consecutive evolution ????)
What our tiny little insignificant brains need to grasp is that we are mere specs of cosmic dust and our time as both an individual and a species is fleeting. That’s why things like an infinite number of collisions of smaller particles of matter seems too impossible for us to comprehend. If there is no smallest particle of matter and all matter is in fact made up of smaller particles of matter each acting as its own pocket of space time, its own self contained pocket of energy then every atomic collision must occur for an infinite number of sub collisions. To us it passes in a nanosecond but to each smaller particle of crashing matter time becomes relative to the pocket and thus an infinity of time can exist in our every fleeting moment.
And as life evolved from within the Atom to populate this planet so should our species strive to be the life form that is able to harmonize the huge number of species within our known outer significant universe to become the life force capable of evolving out of our shell and not just another one of the 99.9999 percent of other similar universes that never evolve to that level and perish as an evolutionary chain only to start anew back at the relative beginning. But lets be realistic. Look at our planet. We will more likely be one of the other 99.99999999 percent of planets that reach our stage of evolution and come so close to overcoming our differences only to falter and throw away a habitable environment for all to prosper much sooner than the natural extinction our sun will eventually cause. Only a species that bonds as a planet with one world government truly working for the betterment of every living creature could ever hope to disperse itself far enough into the heavens to hope to provide a evolutionary process that exceeds the life cycle of our sun.
... nipok

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nipok, posted 08-23-2006 4:34 AM nipok has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 60 (345342)
08-31-2006 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Percy
08-18-2006 10:32 AM


Re: infinite universe
2ice_baked_taters you are 100% correct. The probability of our species evolving long enough to then learn enough to get us where we need to be to escape our self-destruction is slim. I propose that if we as a species could be smart enough to grasp the true nature of just our tiny little universe we could get past our stupid insignificant differences and bond as a species for the betterment of all living beings on this planet. That is the meaning of life.
But sorry not to stray too far...
I propose that our known universe very likely has (as a whole) its own relative velocity to a central point of denser relative gravity and is in fact most likely in some orbit. I propose that our pocket of space time exists inside of a larger pocket of space time. I propose that our pocket of space time is one of an infinite number of such pockets of space time.
My question is simple. (I know I am the last person on this site that you might think of discouraging theoretical physics) BUT taking theoretical physics out of the mix and solely relying on the accepted physics that have moved from theory to law can anyone tell me with any degree of certainty that all of current quantum mechanics disproves the possibility of particles we can’t detect that are acting on the particles we can detect? As soon as your mind can open the door to this likelihood you can then begin to attempt to understand what an infinite universe really means. To be so bold as to assume we have reached the farthest possible scientific precision capable is arrogance unbefitting of a scientist.
Who is so bold or arrogant on this site to say with any certainty that our reliance on our current scientific precision to build the foundation that makes up our current house of cards is beyond the realm of doubt. Answer: Very Few. Reason: Because our current house of cards (string theory and/or membranes) is not beyond the realm of doubt. It is only when one really thinks outside the box and can visualize or accept the likely infinite nature of the universe (which even I agree is very hard to do) that we can begin to question the foundation. Because to move from theory to law you must have an unbreakable foundation. Once there are cracks in the foundation the stability of the rest of the house is then in question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 08-18-2006 10:32 AM Percy has not replied

  
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