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Author | Topic: Do We Live in an Infinite Universe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
In discussing the finite/infinite qualities of the universe it should be noted that we speak only of what we know and not what likely exists. The physical universe we experience is finite and is bound by the limit of our experience. It will always remain so. In that sense it is finite.
Considering that our existence as a species on this planet will likely come to pass this will also place a finite limit to our understanding of what exists. Our experience has shown us though, that the harder we look, the more there is to see. Every time we look to place something in a box we find the box does not fit. knowing this I am inclined to think that what we know is bound by the limits we set. From there I think we know nothing but our limits. Science does not work well without limits. Science would never accept an infinite universe even if it is the case. I have a problem when time is put on the same level as force or energy.Time is a concept. I can apply a force. One cannot apply time.We have simply placed the pre concieved box called time around our notion of what we experience. The idea of the "fabric" of space/time has never worked for me. Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
There is no conclusive evidence either way for an infinite universe, but more cosmologists than not believe it is infinite. Yes, That is my point. It would be similar to proving a creator exists.Since all we will ever know is finite we can never prove an infinite universe. We can only guess or believe. It will never be scientifically provable.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
"We have observations that say that the radius of curvature of the Universe is bigger than 70 billion light years. But the observations allow for either a positive or negative curvature, and this range includes the flat Universe with infinite radius of curvature. The negatively curved space is also infinite in volume even though it is curved." It would seem they have no problem at all with an infinite universe. This snippet simply illustrates my point. We know so little and always will. If the nature of the universe is infinite it can never be proven and certainly not tested. It is permanently beyond our abilities. Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
In the same way, evidence for an infinite universe, if it is indeed infinite, can be gathered from the portion of the universe we can observe. There may, for example, be properties unique to an infinite universe that could be apparent and measurable locally. Yes. So based upon a limited knowledge one can form an assumption that can never be proven.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
But if you are using "proven" in the sense of "possessing strong supporting evidence," then you have no way of knowing whether we'll ever gather strong supporting evidence for an infinite universe. Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're wrong. You don't know what evidence we'll find in the future. Evidence that we will not is stronger that evidence that we will.We will never detect all there is. This is especially true in light of how species come and go on this planet. Based on fossil history it is more likely that we shall pass from this earth as a species never coming anywhere close to understanding our selves or our corner of the universe. One can never know infinity. It is an idea. It may be true but we will never know. We are finite as a species. My evidence is quite strong and is a far more likely scenario than banking on humanities ego. Legends in our own mind. lol
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
In that vein, there's a recent book that might interest you, The End of Science by John Horgan, in which he argues that we *are* reaching the limits of knowledge. As I've already said, such predictions have a very poor track record, and Horgan is just the latest of the breed. Over a hundred years ago many scientists believed the same thing. The famous physicist Michelson expressed a common sentiment of the day in a speech in 1894 when he said, in effect, that science had already discovered all the significant knowledge and that future physicists
would be spending their time just extending the number of decimal places of accuracy. Sure, there were a few problems, like black body radiation for one, but those would likely all be tidied up within a few years. In 1894 they could have no idea that they actually sat on the doorstep of a scientific revolution whose seeds were already planted and that would explode onto the scene in 1905 with Einstein's famous papers. In other words, while history cannot be relied upon to always repeat itself, the evidence of history is that Horgan, and you, are likely wrong. This is precisely why I cited ego. I made no mention that man has reached a limit where all is understood and things are "sewn up"This will never happen. The advances in science are only impressive to us. That is the ego at work again. I have place a practicly applied limit based on our likelyhood of survival as a species. Our capacity to understand is limited to our existance. This is inescapable fact one cannot avoid.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
I'll have to disagree again, and it's because of specialization. As we delve ever deeper into the mysteries of the universe we might have to divide this knowledge into more and more specialties and sub-specialities and sub-sub-specialties, and among more and more specialists, but I don't believe we'll ever reach an inherent human limit where we're simply unable to analyze and model it any further. You have ignored my very clear point. The human species will likely cease to exist long before we learn a tiny fraction of what there is to learn. There will be no one to specialize.
But that's all beside the point. Your original comment was that "We will never detect all there is...One can never know infinity. It is an idea," and the reply was that science is inductive and does not require that we "detect all there is." There may be properties unique to an infinite universe that can be detected locally and then generalized. Just as science assumes from the measurements we've made locally on the common isotope of hydrogen that it has the same properties throughout the universe as it does here, science will conclude that the measurements we make of the observable universe extend to those parts of the universe beyond our reach. Just as science does not require that we observe all hydrogen atoms to verify their properties, neither does it require that we observe the entire universe to understand its properties. This will be a problem. One has to find a physical property thatindicates infinity. Good luck with that. Then it will have to be tested and of course can never be proven. As I said before...the best that can ever be achived with this question is an "edjucated" guess. I am saying we will cease to exist as a species long before this. As I said the odds are in favor of my position. An edjucated guess with eventual extinction. I would not put my money on that.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
The problem you're having is that you're trying to place limits on what we can know. If your reason for those limits is just that we'll go extinct as a species before we've had time to surpass those limits, then this really doesn't seem worth discussing. But if you believe that there are properties inherent in our comprehension abilities or in the nature of the universe that prevent us from ever developing evidence for an infinite universe, then as I've said before, the history of such predictions is fairly sorry. When has there ever been such a prediction as I have made? There is no prediction in history of that nature that I am aware of and if there has been it still holds true.You may continue to believe in the pipe dream if you wish.
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