Author
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Topic: Universe - Size . . . something doesn't compute !
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MarkSteven
Inactive Member
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Message 61 of 69 (55312)
09-13-2003 10:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 60 by Rei 09-13-2003 9:45 PM
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Re: Yes, but...
That's why using "infinity" as a number just doesn't work. Bingo . . . again
This message is a reply to: | | Message 60 by Rei, posted 09-13-2003 9:45 PM | | Rei has not replied |
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MarkSteven
Inactive Member
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Message 62 of 69 (55323)
09-13-2003 11:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog 09-13-2003 5:16 AM
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Hotel Infinity
Just another thought on Hotel Infinity . . . You mentioned earlier that there are an infinite number of points on a line - therefore -
A customer comes up and wants a room. "Sorry," you tell him, "we're full." "Nonsense," he replies. "This is the Hotel Infinity. You have an infinite number of rooms." He's right, of course. "Well, I guess you could have the room at the end of the infinitely long hall..." you say. "Won't work - I'll never get there. Humans can only walk a finite distance." The customer could easily just pop into the room between numbers 1 and 2. Then he wouldn't have to walk an infinite distance to the "end" of the infinitely long hallway As I understand it infinity can go small as well as large . . . (that's probably not a good way to explain it, but I'm sure you get my point).
This message is a reply to: | | Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 09-13-2003 5:16 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 6:52 AM | | MarkSteven has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Again, I'm not wanting to impose my beliefs upon anyone, but my interpretation of "universe" is "everything". Oh. Well, in that sense, I suppose the universe is infinite. But I'm working from a definition that most cosmologists seem to take: that the universe is the set of all coordinates that it is possible to travel to. That's why we can talk about mutilple and finite universes, for instance. I guess I'm of the opinion that my definition is a little more useful.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 56 by MarkSteven, posted 09-13-2003 6:42 PM | | MarkSteven has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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The customer could easily just pop into the room between numbers 1 and 2. Then he wouldn't have to walk an infinite distance to the "end" of the infinitely long hallway Seriously, a good attempt, but it doesn't work - the Hotel Infinity only has rooms labeled with whole numbers. So, there's less rooms than if you labeled every one with real numbers (one order of infinity less, in fact) but it's still infinite.
As I understand it infinity can go small as well as large . . . It would if there weren't a restriction on what rooms can be in the Hotel Infinity.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 62 by MarkSteven, posted 09-13-2003 11:21 PM | | MarkSteven has replied |
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MarkSteven
Inactive Member
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Message 65 of 69 (55428)
09-14-2003 7:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog 09-14-2003 6:48 AM
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But I'm working from a definition that most cosmologists seem to take: that the universe is the set of all coordinates that it is possible to travel to. If this were the case, our universe would be minuscule. We can't travel as far as we can see, but does that mean that what we can see past the distance that we can travel is not actually part of the universe? Again, I don't see the neccessity to travel "somewhere" in order to accept that "somewhere" exists.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 6:48 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 67 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 7:13 PM | | MarkSteven has not replied |
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MarkSteven
Inactive Member
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Message 66 of 69 (55430)
09-14-2003 7:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog 09-14-2003 6:52 AM
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It would if there weren't a restriction on what rooms can be in the Hotel Infinity. Come on Crash, points on a line vs. rooms along the corridor of the Hotel Infinity . . . which one is it? You can't have it both ways.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 6:52 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 7:17 PM | | MarkSteven has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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If this were the case, our universe would be minuscule. We can't travel as far as we can see, but does that mean that what we can see past the distance that we can travel is not actually part of the universe? You've misunderstood me. Not the part that we can travel to now. The parts that we could travel to theoretically. After all, there's no place in the universe I couldn't go to with sufficient time. On the other hand, there's no concievable Newtonian propulsion that could take me out of the universe. So, what I mean to say is that the universe consists of all possible places I could get with Newtonian motion.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 65 by MarkSteven, posted 09-14-2003 7:07 PM | | MarkSteven has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Come on Crash, points on a line vs. rooms along the corridor of the Hotel Infinity . . . which one is it? But these two aren't the same. There's more points on a line than there are rooms at the Hotel Infinity. The Hotel Infinity is defined as having only rooms with whole numbers. If you built a competing hotel that had rooms for every real number, you'd have more rooms than at the Hotel Infinity, but you could never get to them, because there would always be an infinite number of rooms between where you were and where your room was. After all you can hardly have rooms of infinitesimal size and expect to get much business. At the Hotel Infinity, you can get to any room in finite time. That's not true with the Real Inn (or whatever you'd like to call it. )
This message is a reply to: | | Message 66 by MarkSteven, posted 09-14-2003 7:11 PM | | MarkSteven has not replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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I'm not going to just shut up and cave in to their views, no matter how educated they may be. Good, you shouldn't have to. However, anyone in recent centuries who as actually made any corrections has first understood teh current consensus at an exper level. You have to put a huge amount of effort in before you can begin to critisize. Unfortunately cosmology may not be the best choice as a place to make your mark as the effort requred there is enormous. How's your math anyway? When you're at the doctoral level there you'll have part of what you need in your bag of tools [This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-15-2003]
This message is a reply to: | | Message 43 by MarkSteven, posted 09-13-2003 1:47 AM | | MarkSteven has not replied |
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