How do creationists explain stars?

Great topic, though all speculative...I personally think (not that anybody cares) that the universe was created fully formed.I believe it was perfect and after the fall of man, the whole thing has just been continually falling apart in some degree or another. I know this is not a new concept. 2nd law of thermodynamics and all...In a perfect system, it would only take one part to become out of harmony with the whole, to manifest an end to perfection. We think in terms of better than, or worse than. I suspect that in the absolute reality that I believe is our destiny if God has His way, there is only what is good (perfect), and anything less is evil.The only possible discrepancy that I wonder about, is that assuming the Biblical view, Lucifer and His angels had been cast to the earth. So, I don't know that it could have been a perfect system at that point.Perhaps that is why there was a need for a Garden. Hmm?But even then the sly old Serpent was there, so... I haven't figured it all out. That is why I said, it was perfect to some degree or design, but all the pieces are not there.Perhaps we were designed for perfection and the creation was designed for perfection, but it was necessary to be patient for the final scene of the play. In that way, we could have a choice, and evil would prove God's goodness. Wish/wash Santa claus! It's surely not worth fighting over...I reccomend a book called 'The Evolution of a Creationist' by Dr. Jobe Martin. He is not the type who will impress the strictly critical sceptic. But he unravels some intriguing puzzles on the early earth at least potentially. One that caught my eye (and there were several like this), is that Teredactyls (I know I spelled that wrong) would have been able to fly in the preflood atmosphere of earth (higher pressure and density). They could not have in our current atmosphere. Also, the water vapor canopy hinted at in Genesis, would have protected us in numerous ways, not the least of which is radiation. And in that environment, and assuming we were created to live eternally, when death entered the picture, it would not be unreasonable to 'consider' that men could have lived up to hundreds of years.Also, when Noah exited the ark in the lower pressure atmosphere, his normal consumption of wine would have more easily intoxicated him.Now, none of these things is essential in the manner that many scientists insist on in their own worldviews. The modern evolutionist is as dogmatic and fundamental about scientific beliefs that historically are shown to be thrown out as new evidence comes in, as any fanatic has ever displayed. For the Christian, it is better to not place your hat on speculation but be satisfied that many questions remain unanswered. If the Bible was demonstrably false in correctly showing the earths History, I don't think there would be a debate. It's not like some of the other fantastic tales from that same era where the earth is described as riding on the back of a huge tortoise.In the final analysis, faith is not blind at all, but quite revealing...I look at it this way. If God exists and I require full disclosure before I will accept what evidence does fit together as per Genesis, then I am insisting that I have God's knowledge before I will accept God and His claimed word.If that is the case, then I can't even believe that I exist, because I surely do not have full disclosure as to who I am or where here is. In that sense, I think the reason life is such a mystery, is that life is of God, and we are of the world. He cannot give us the kind of knowledge we were intended to have until He can make us perfect. And as Lewis said so bluntly, 'death is part of that process.'Some things, like the fact that I exist, and other less interesting subcreatures like anphibians, just have to be taken on faith irrespective of whether or not we would like them to exist, particularly in their current manifestation. But they are bound to change (metamorphesis) given the proper environment and enough time. The main thing is that we not let them off the hook, and continue to persuade with clear unmolested reason.As Robert Jastrow (agnostic, and former director of the Hubble observatory) said, 'If we go back in time, things reach a point of infinite density and temperature. That implys a beginning and that has a strong theological flavor to it.'Was there a beginning? Yes! Whether it was fully formed and is falling apart, or there was a big bang and it is still being formed I don't know... but it doesn't matter because in this life I never will.I do know this, it is meant to be wholly formed, and that is where it is going with us, or without us. God has ordained it, and commands that we be perfect. With His help, we can overcome our finitude and gain power that is only given to those who can handle it. The instructions for use are found in the Spirit of God. Not to mention the patience to endure the wait.Come Lord jesus, come quickly!Rob

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Any biters in the stream?

You guys really need to relax. I thought I did a great job of explaining that this whole exercise is just speculation. Even so, you get so offended. Truth is relative remember? What's wrong with my truth? You have yours right? [b]Note: I always use the NIV version except when pasting and copying for time saving. And for the record, I'm not persnickity about which translation is the best. My internet resource covers thirty of them[b]The Bible - Read and Study Free Online I'm dissapointed I have to addresss some of these things. Really sloppy on your part. The Bible and the second law...Old Testament "NKJ Isa 51:6 For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, the earth will grow old like a garment..."
And also a New Testament rendering: NKJ, Heb 1:10-11 "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment."Also, I think you're forgetting the 1st law of thermodynamics... energy can never be create nor destroyed i.e. The suns are going to burn out and are not creating new energy, but are only converting existing energy.And for the corrosponding Bible verse that reveals the 1st Law many thousands of years before we discovered it... NIV Genesis 2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And this conveniently fits with other passages which elude to not adding or subtracting to the word, and God's plans being complete, or whole. Christ on the cross, 'It is finished!'Other scientifically accurate Bible quotes that preceed science, and that 'old science' argued with. NKJ Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth..." It was people who said the earth was flat, Not the word of God.NKJ, Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over empty space; he hangs the earth upon nothing"
Now when you read that, please don't pretend that you know what gravity is and presume to argue the point... To God, 'good' is perfect... NIV Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
NIV Luke 18:19
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You're too cynical little goat boy, Christ is also portrayed as the morning star, and said Himself 'I am the light of the world'. 'I have come into the world as a light' etc. The terms star and light have a double meaning to confuse the proud and learned... [b]NIV Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made...NKJ Job 41; 1 "Can you draw out the Leviathon, or snare his tongue with a line in which you lower?"NKJ Rev 20; 1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, Having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He layed hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the botttomless pit, and shut him up"Speaking of Leviathan:Job 36:4 Be assured that my words are not false; one perfect in knowledge is with you.Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.Heb 11:40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.I reccommend a book called 'The Evolution of a Creationist' by Dr. Jobe Martin.... Dr, Martin gives it in his book. It's totally testable, as are many of the things in Genesis. He documents his conclusions well. Check it out. I know your interested inexpanding your horizons in a relentless pursuit of the truth... I'm making it all up. I went back in time and changed the ancient texts... It's a damn conspiracy! Say what??? What I believe has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. And the same goes for you. I am so glad you understand this point because some people have a hard time comprehending the fact that reality preceeds them. Reality is absolute!Maybe we are reincarnated... Maybe we did evolve... maybe God did create the world in six days, and maybe we will be ressurected...Whatever the truth turns out to be, it will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So this whole notion of diversity and the truth being relative is completely false. Thank you for proving that point on accident. Jesus came to restore sight... You need to have your sight restored. If it is true... I think it has tremendous bearing on all of reality. But your statement is true and therefore absolute? Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and no other...

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Thou shall not create a God in your own image...But Reverend, I have to admit... your God would be a lot less scary and would let me live anyway I want without compromise. Uconditonal love man... I appriciate your tolerance and concern. I can see you are a loving soul...--------------------------
I do know this, it is meant to be wholly formed, and that is where it is going with us, or without us. God has ordained it, and commands that we be perfect. With His help, we can overcome our finitude and gain power that is only given to those who can handle it. The instructions for use are found in the Spirit of God. Not to mention the patience to endure the wait. No, I'm making it all up... There is nothing in the Bible about Eternal life, Heaven, the new Heaven and Earth, or the patient endurance of the saints. You got me boss... Oh yeah... how do creationists explain the stars???...In the beginning, God created...

Hey man!

When did you last see a three-dimensional circle, Rob?Every time I see a sphere, how about you? Now for God who is omnipresent, I do not know how to even describe what such a perspective would be... I suspect he would relate in the simplest manner possible to us. That way, anyone could understand and at the same time, the arrogant could scoff...The bible often refers to the four corners of the Earth, so I'm just noting that Isaiah didn't say that God sits above the 'square' of the earth. It's worth noting...I confess that it is not proof, but it is not proof for either of us.

Yep, you got it... A circle is not necesarily a ball, but a ball is always a circle. It depends on perspective... If you ever go to that mountain you will understand. It's an experiential thing. Sorry for any lack of evidence...

I don't know! But I think the concept of a fully formed universe is self explanatory.I don't think God fools us per se'. I think we fool ourselves in believing we can prove anything.And that's a remarkable thing when you think about it.Like I said earlier, if I had to understand all this stuff to believe it, then I couldn't even believe I exist. But I have tremendous faith that I do, and that I am typing a reasonable response to your question.We're not God, so why don't you ask Him some of these things?

No not everything. In fact look at Galileo... the church wanted to cut his throat, but he was right. The sun rises the sun sets. It is true... Where we run into problems is in interpretation. The church seemed to think it meant that the Earth stood still. They were wrong.Science can do the same thing. Consider Einsteins view: To me it is not the facts that are the problem, it is the lens by which we look at them. --- Patrick Morley

Sorry man, I just don't see the problem when assuming God is omnipotent. That just so happens to be the character of the biblical God.Anything is possible! We must keep an open mind. --Napoleon Bonaparte

Touche'...You have to talk to Him by His rules. First, you must give up your whole life and let Him spiritually possess you. He bought and paid for us. It's just too high a price for a lot of people and sounds really bizarre.

You'll have to ask someone else... But that is not my current understanding.I need a beer!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

That's what I've been doing...

The fact you appear to disagree. And yes, you may...

I see we all ramble now and then How do creationists explain stars??? In the begginnig, God created...I think the problem with understanding this is that everything has a cause. The Kallum cosmological argument says that everything that begins to exist, has a cause.The universe began to exist... Why? Because an entropic (2nd law of thermodynamics) system, such as ours, could not have existed eternally, since it would have had all of eternity for the energy to come completely apart.The only argument to counter this that I can think of is that entropy is increasing, which would indicate that entropy would decrease in the past. Perhaps, there was point that there was no entropy at all (a perfect system). And then your argument becomes interesting...Because, then It could be said that it did indeed take all that time for the light to get here, indicating an age of untold billions of years for the universe.I don't deny the logic, I just know that it cannot prove that God in the omnipotent and all powerful way He is described in the Bible cannot exist and could not create the universe pre-formed, including light already positioned as it would be years later.It is not difficult for me to make the leap, because I believe all life was created pre-formed because it is irreducibly complex. But that's another thread, and to be honest, there I got my butt kicked...And I'm not Amish...

Ah yes.. String Theory. So, you move beyond physics to metaphisics, so that you can deny the metaphysical claim of theists?Did you know that it takes a spirit to deny a spirit?

{qsreality is not absolute, have you ever talked to any pychotic people? they have a very different reality than you or i do - reality is relative to the person, what you mean is the universe is absolute[/qs]If what you said is true, then it is not true. I see the lie, because I see the contradiction... Read message 94 or 95...