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Author Topic:   Before the Big Bang
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 153 of 311 (409878)
07-11-2007 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Modulous
07-11-2007 5:08 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
Hi, Modulous,
I see I put a cocklebur under your saddle blanket.
The big bang is a model that describes a singularity (or just a hot dense region of space-time expanding, or inflating
But now we are at the point there was something before the big bang.
Now we need to know where that something came from.
I say in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Then I am asked who created God? Where did He come from?
I say He always was. Reply, no way nothing is infinite.
Mod when I talk about the singularity I am making fun of it because I do not believe something can come from nothing.
I believe that something or someone has to cause things to happen.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 07-11-2007 5:08 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 07-12-2007 5:36 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 155 of 311 (410206)
07-13-2007 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Modulous
07-12-2007 5:36 AM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
Something coming from nothing doesn't make sense.
I agree, it has never made sense to me.
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/b_bang.html
Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.
Being widely accepted does not make it true.
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm
One of the most persistently asked questions has been: How was the universe created? Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however,no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning.
At one time many believed the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite.
Then the Big Bang theory killed that idea.
The Big Bang theory is everything had a beginning, with a history.
Page not found | Simon Singh
The story begins with the theoretical foundations laid by Einstein and his General Theory of Relativity. But it was Georges Lematre, a Catholic priest from Belgium, who proposed the idea of a universe born at a single instant in the past - "a day without a yesterday" - and expanding outwards from that moment.
A day without a yesterday. Sounds like nothing existed before.
Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium
There's another important quality of the Big Bang that makes it unique. While an explosion of a man-made bomb expands through air, the Big Bang did not expand through anything. That's because there was no space to expand through at the beginning of time. Rather, physicists believe the Big Bang created and stretched space itself, expanding the universe.
The Big Bang did not expand through anything. That leaves nothing.
There was no space.
The Big Bang created space and stretched it.
Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Approximately 13.7 billion years ago, the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.
This is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist.
An ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature...
Created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself.
Thus all particles, matter, energy, space and time itself was created at the moment of Big Bang.
If these things did not exist before the Big Bang, then there was nothing.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/universes/html/bang.html
The Big Bang marks the instant at which the universe began, when space and time came into existence and all the matter in the cosmos started to expand.
The instant the universe began, when time and space came into existence.
Page Not Found | Science Mission Directorate
The night sky presents the viewer with a picture of a calm and unchanging Universe. Therefore, the discovery by Edwin Hubble, in 1929, that the Universe is in fact expanding at an enormous speed, was a revolutionary one. Hubble noted that galaxies outside our own Milky Way were all moving away from us, each at a speed proportional to its distance away from us. Most importantly, this meant that there must have been an instant in time (now known to be about 14 billion years ago) when the entire Universe was contained in a single point in space. The Universe must have been born in this single violent event which came to be known as the "Big Bang."
This meant that there must have been an instant in time (now known to be about 14 billion years ago) when the entire Universe was contained in a single point in space.
But there was no space for the single point to be as space did not exist according to the Big Bang theory. See quotes above.
Glimpse of Time Before Big Bang Possible | Space
The Big Bang is often thought as the start of everything, including time, making any questions about what happened during it or beforehand nonsensical. Recently scientists have instead suggested the Big Bang might have just been the explosive beginning of the current era of the universe, hinting at a mysterious past.
The Big Bang is often thought as the start of everything, including time,
Everything means there was nothing before.
Modulous it is time for science to do science and dump the Big Bang theory.
Mod, I am just a simple farm boy, who was not educated in the sciences. But I do know that in my lifetime I have never seen something come from nothing.
Aristotle, taking the no-beginning side, invoked the principle that out of nothing, nothing comes. If the universe could never have gone from nothingness to somethingness, it must always have existed.
I agree with Aristotle, that it has always been. When I studied Hebrew and Chaldee we discussed Genesis 1:1 throughly.
My understanding from the Hebrew and Chaldee, that Genesis 1:1 infers that in the realm or sphere of the beginnings God literally tore from Himself the entire universe.
Modulous writes:
the singularity did not appear it is simply a coordinate in spacetime. Just like north is a coordinate on earth-surface and there is no north of north (I believe this analogy was first put forward by Hawking).
But according to all the statements concerning the Big bang theory above there was no space or time. That means there was either something there or nothing was there.
Not from me - I say there must be an entity that exists without creation.
Here you are saying there is an entity that was in existence before the Big Bang.
I find it quite astonishing that I can write so much, even adding a reference for you, and you still think that the Big Bang with singularity model proposes something coming from nothing!
You are not shouting as loud as all these other references I find.
Let me sum up before the Big Bang:
There was no space.
There was no time.
There was no particles.
There was no matter.
There was no subatomic particles.
There was no energy.
If all these things were created during the Big Bang and did not exist before please explain:
What did exist?
How you could have an explosion of trillions of degrees in temperature without energy?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 07-12-2007 5:36 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 7:15 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 157 by Fosdick, posted 07-13-2007 7:38 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 175 by Modulous, posted 07-14-2007 5:29 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 158 of 311 (410216)
07-13-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2007 7:15 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
(2) They know more physics than you do.
I sure hope they do. If they don't they wasted a lot of money on schooling.
Now would you like to try to answer my question or point me to the answer.
Let me sum up before the Big Bang: as pointed to in, Message 155
There was no space.
There was no time.
There was no particles.
There was no matter.
There was no subatomic particles.
There was no energy.
If all these things were created during the Big Bang and did not exist before please explain:
What did exist?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 7:15 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 9:12 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 159 of 311 (410219)
07-13-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Fosdick
07-13-2007 7:38 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
Nothing existed.
I say nothing existed, according to what I can find the Big Bang theory proposes, therefore something came from nothing. Modulous says the Big Bang theory does not propose something coming from nothing. Therefore he can't understand why I don't understand that the Big Bang theory does not come from nothing.
Dr. infers I am too stupid to understand it anyway.
Then you say Nothing existed.
And how hot was it just before the big bang went off? Unrealistically hot!
That raises another question, How could nothing be so unrealistically hot?
If I did not believe God was there you guys would have me very confused.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Fosdick, posted 07-13-2007 7:38 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by NosyNed, posted 07-13-2007 8:39 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 161 by Fosdick, posted 07-13-2007 8:54 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 162 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 8:58 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 164 of 311 (410233)
07-13-2007 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2007 8:58 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
But Dr.
The people who have studied physics, and are very very good at it,
These people you are talking about are the people I have been reading and quoting.
I have only what I can find to read and examine to form my conclusions from.
All of the articles quoted pointed to a time when there was nothing.
If there was a time we had nothing but now we have the universe. What conclusion can I come too other than something came from nothing.
Now if they want to say there was something there that is fine with me.
Grandma, used to say son you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Either there was something there and that is what the universe came from.
OR
There was nothing there and that is what the universe came from.
Which was it?
Did I misunderstand all the referencces I quoted in Message 155?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 8:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Vacate, posted 07-13-2007 9:40 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 179 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-14-2007 7:37 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 165 of 311 (410237)
07-13-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2007 9:12 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
If, as you say, there was "no time" before the Big Bang, then the phrase "before the Big Bang" is meaningless, like "North of the North Pole", and your question makes no sense.
Then are you saying everything came from nothing.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2007 9:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-14-2007 7:32 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 167 of 311 (410241)
07-13-2007 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Vacate
07-13-2007 9:40 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
At what point are you looking for "something"?
Message 158
Doesn't matter just tell me at what moment "something" began to exist.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Vacate, posted 07-13-2007 9:40 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by NosyNed, posted 07-13-2007 10:17 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 169 by Vacate, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 176 by Modulous, posted 07-14-2007 5:38 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 170 of 311 (410249)
07-13-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by NosyNed
07-13-2007 10:17 PM


Re: The point of something
But all of those are not included in the big bang theory as currently formulated.
Exactly.
My point to Mod was that the Big Bang theory states there was nothing by all the resources I referenced, and that now we have something. That being the case everything we have came from nothing which is impossible.
Thus my dilemma:
Either there was something before the Big Bang that the universe expanded out of.
OR
There was nothing and the universe expanded out of that nothing.
If there was something there to get the universe out of, then we have the problem of where that something came from etc.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NosyNed, posted 07-13-2007 10:17 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 07-13-2007 11:26 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 180 by cavediver, posted 07-14-2007 8:13 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 171 of 311 (410250)
07-13-2007 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Vacate
07-13-2007 10:25 PM


Re: Nothing Before the Big Bang
All I see from this comment is that there is a something. When is it that your at odds with?
? Was it there before the big bang or one planck time after the big bang.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Vacate, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 07-13-2007 11:26 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 174 by Vacate, posted 07-14-2007 3:35 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 181 of 311 (410330)
07-14-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by cavediver
07-14-2007 8:13 AM


Re: The point of something
Hi cavediver,
First let's clear something up. The Universe may or may not have a time before the T=0 of the Big Bang.
That makes it just as clear as mud.
Either: There was someting before the Big Bang.
Or: There was nothing before the Big Bang.
It cannot be both ways.
There is also the point of the Big Bang. From outside it doesn't look special at all. It's just another point on the ball. Admittedly, if you look closely enough, you will see that there is something special about that point, but nothing drastic. It is certainly not a point of creation.
But this says there was something there already.
My problem is the Big Bang theory starts with nothing or at the most a singularity. But if all the things listed below was created at the planck time after the big bang where did they come from. And since none of those things existed they were not in the singularity.
Let me sum up before the Big Bang: Message 155
There was no space.
There was no time.
There was no particles.
There was no matter.
There was no subatomic particles.
There was no energy.
I think that covers everything.
Matter anmd energy are just a feature of the Universe.
But the universe did not exist until after the Big Bang.
The Big Bang is just one, albeit interesting, point on this wonderful beach ball we call the Universe...
If I understand your post you are hinting that the universe has always been there. The beach ball (being the universe) with the Big Bang as a point on the ball.
cavediver, I have no problem with the universe being old, even very old. I do not have a problem with things getting rearranged by various events.
I do have a problem with a singularity appearing (since the Big Bang theory says there was no matter, no space, no particles, no subatomic particles no energy and no time) then expanding into the universe as we know it today.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by cavediver, posted 07-14-2007 8:13 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by cavediver, posted 07-14-2007 12:12 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 183 by Fosdick, posted 07-14-2007 12:20 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 184 by NosyNed, posted 07-14-2007 1:52 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-15-2007 5:46 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 185 of 311 (410409)
07-14-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by cavediver
07-14-2007 12:12 PM


Re: The point of something
Ok, it looks as if I've completely failed to get across what I'm trying to say
If I understand what you are saying it is:
We have the Big Bang theory.
There may have been a before.
There may not have been a before.
We have no idea where the singularity came from.
Even though the Big Bang theory states everything that exists was created by the Big Bang therefore ruling out the possibility of anything existing prior to T<0. Meaning everything we see today came from nothing, and since we know something cannot come from nothing, We will throw up smoke screens and try to explain the facts away. (Reminds me of the YEC"ERS)
The fact is if the Big Bang theory is correct everything came from nothing.
If something cannot come from nothing it is time to discard the outdated Big Bang theory and replace it with something else.
I know that there are those who have already proposed replacement theories.
It didn't appear - it just is. Just as right now, right here just is. And now, and now again.
It didn't appear - it just is. That says it was in existence prior to T<0.
I know that right now is now. I also know that a planck time ago was then.
But the singularity did not have a planck time ago as it did not exist. There was no then.
I also know the best answer for where the singularity came from is we don't know.
You're missing the big issue. Time as we know it is purely a property of our Universe.
Time as we know it is for the benefit of man.
cavediver, I have no problem with there being a before.
I like to use an illustration when talking about eternity. You draw a circle (the complete circle represents eternity), then place a mark on the circle at 11 o'clock, write beginning of time as we know it. Then make another mark at 12 o'clock write end of time as we know it.
Time is just a small segment of eternity that you and I exist in.
When we have God's view of the Universe, there is no before or after.
God's view is just one great big now. He views the beginning and the end at the same time and everything in-between.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by cavediver, posted 07-14-2007 12:12 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2007 12:14 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 186 of 311 (410411)
07-15-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by NosyNed
07-14-2007 1:52 PM


Re: Please answer this one, ICANT
That analogy has been used before but I think you've skipped over it. I'd like you to answer that question carefully.
I will try.
If our whole universe (world) is the surface of this earth and I hike, ski and swim to the north pole, being careful to head north the whole time then what is north of the north pole?
First of all the universe is not planet earth.
Therefore to compare our universe to the earth is stupid.
But to try to answer your question what is north of north in the universe not the earth. If you could figure out which direction in the universe was north and set of on a journey in some kind of spacecraft and travel at the speed of light you would die before you reached north in the universe.
After that you use words like "before" and "then" in your posts. If there is no time you can't use those words.
Why not.
I believe that Genesis 1:1 took place billions of years ago in time as we know time.
But from Genesis 1:1 until Genesis 1:2 was only 1 day as there was no night. During that day all the events recorded in Genesis 2:4-Genesis 4:26 took place.
I believe Genesis 1:2 took place only a few thousand years ago.
Genesis 1:5 was the creation of the first 24 hour day.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by NosyNed, posted 07-14-2007 1:52 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by cavediver, posted 07-15-2007 5:13 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 190 by Modulous, posted 07-15-2007 5:54 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 187 of 311 (410414)
07-15-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Fosdick
07-14-2007 12:20 PM


Re: The point of something
How do you justify believing in "eternal life" while rejecting the concept of immaterial timelessness in pre-big-bang cosmology?
Hoot Mon,
I reject the concept of immaterial timelessness as I believe in a material timeless eternity, with a portion marked off by time for the benefit of humankind.
See: Message 185
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Fosdick, posted 07-14-2007 12:20 PM Fosdick has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 192 of 311 (410551)
07-15-2007 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Fosdick
07-15-2007 12:14 PM


Re: What God sees
How on earth could you or anyone else know what God sees?
Isai 46:9 (KJV) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
If God declared the end from the beginning He must have been able to see it. If He could see it then, why could He not see it now?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2007 12:14 PM Fosdick has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 193 of 311 (410559)
07-15-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by cavediver
07-15-2007 5:13 AM


Re: Please answer this one, ICANT
You disappoint me...
Sorry to disappoint the teacher.
But teacher I have asked many questions without answers. Message 155
I have referenced many sites without a mention of them coming from you.
So I will try again.
Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Approximately 13.7 billion years ago, the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.
This states:
1. the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity,
2. this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist.
So at this moment there was absolutly nothing and in this nothing there was a singularity, which could not exist if there was nowhere for it to exist.
Then states:
1. an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature
2. created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself.
Space did not exist.
Time did not exist.
Particles did not exist.
Matter did not exist.
Energy did not exist.
If none of these things existed until after the explosion, would you please explain how a singularity that would be made up of all these things could exist.
If there was no particles, no matter, no energy, there could be no nucleus.
If there was no space where did the singularity exist other than someone's imagination.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by cavediver, posted 07-15-2007 5:13 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by NosyNed, posted 07-15-2007 9:19 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 195 by Modulous, posted 07-16-2007 1:53 AM ICANT has replied

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