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Author Topic:   Questions Creationists Never Answer
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 67 of 141 (257896)
11-08-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 3:34 PM


Re: Schra ??
The bias in the results is almost always in the direction of "too old" and consistently so because one of the errors is the assumption that no material is lost by any method other than redioactive decay.. without any support I may say. There is zero chance of any material being added to the sample over its life as there is no mechanism for such, but there are plenty of ways material could be lost. Thus the errors or biases always occur in the same mistakenly older direction.
Your understanding of radioactive decay seems to be a bit off. There is no material that is "lost" by radioactive decay. The material is changed from a parent isotope to a daughter isotope and the date is determined by the ratio between the two.
If more parent material is added the sample will look younger. The parent material is lost the sample will look older.
If daughter material is added the sample looks older. If daughter material is lost the sample looks younger.
It is my understanding that the most common form of contamination is the loss of daughter product. Real geologists please correct me if I am wrong. Therefore the trend would actually be error on the side of younger.
Then of course if loss of material of any significant amount were very common at all then we would not have any correlations.
{ABE}
See also this discussion of the correlation of ages in the Hawaiian islands.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 11-08-2005 03:17 PM

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 3:34 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:30 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 69 of 141 (257901)
11-08-2005 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 5:14 PM


Re: Schra ??
A more non-combative way of expressing what crash is saying is this.
Where in the model of the flood does it describe the mechanism that kept grass, grass pollen, flowering plants, and flowering plant pollen, which is ubiquitous in higher layers of the column, from existing in the lower layers of the column?
If flood geology cannot describe the facts of the column then it is a hypothesis in crisis.
To deny the geologic column is to deny fact; an even worse proposition.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:14 PM Evopeach has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 71 of 141 (257907)
11-08-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 5:30 PM


Re: Schra ??
Sorry but you haven't explained how material is added... clearly impossible in either case.
Daughter material is potentially added during initial formation. I am unaware of any particular mechanisms to add parent material.
Loss of daughter material is much more common. The nature of the crystalization of the rock rejects the daughter isotope. Therefore the daughter product "wants" to get out and thus the error if any is more often than not toward the younger rather than older as per your assertion.
But leaching out of the original material (parent) is quite likely and more likely because its obviously been around longer than the daughter product (sort of by definition) and that is a major source of error which biases toward older ages.
False. Parent material is part of the crystal matrix AFAIK which is why it exists as part of the rock to begin with. The daughter product is activly rejected which is why for these systems we can assume the initial state. Loss of material is not linear with time.
You know water transport and such.
You must soley be thinking of carbon dating. Please realize that carbon dating is vastly inferior to the forms of dating used for igneous and metamorphic rocks. It is a whole different animal.
Actually radiocarbon dating uses C14 to C14 comparisons.. no daughter involved.
Yes it seems you are limiting your discussion to carbon dating. Certainly carbon dating has its issues which are discussed in many threads here. But that does not invalidate what I said about the numerous other radioactive dating techniques for dating crystaline rock. These are the important ones that give us the age of the earth. Carbon dating is limited to organics and can only give us ages in the tens of thousands of years.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:30 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:49 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 73 of 141 (257914)
11-08-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 5:49 PM


Re: Schra ??
NO just wanted to refute your claim that all methods require ratios of parent to daughter... just so.
All dating techniques use a ratio of parent to daughter. Even carbon dating. The only caveat with carbon dating is that the initial concentration of parent isotope is dependent on the environment which is why you get margins of error based on the CO2 in the atmosphere and marine vs non-marine organics.
I suggest you read the RATE project material before swallowing whole the traditional evolutionary geologists claims.
I have read nearly every scrap of material produced by the RATE project. I don't swallow any claims. I am a student of geology. Also, what is an evolutionary geologist? Evolution is the study of changes in a population of living organisms. Geology is the study of the non-living earth and the things its made of. Do you know anyone who has a degree in evolutionary geology?
You know these things depend on the solution of differential equations and assumptions about initial conditions, constant decay rates and boundary values.. I would be cautious about my dead certain assertions.
Solutions of differential equations which I am capable of examining and solving myself with my concentration in mathematics.
Initial conditions which can be demonstrated with basic chemistry.
Constant decay rates which are established via direct observation and verified via subsequent observations from astronomy.
A hard math problem and a few facts hardly make something an assertion. Assertions are things that are unfounded. Perhaps you can show us how the solution to a differential equation is an assertion.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:49 PM Evopeach has not replied

  
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