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Author Topic:   Questions Creationists Never Answer
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 141 (239176)
08-31-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by CreationWise
08-31-2005 3:09 PM


IF YOU TAKE A PLANT AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS AND AWAY FROM SOIUL, IT WILL ROT.
What, in you flood model, is "taking them away from their roots and soil?"
ALSO, TREES AND PLANTS ARE LIGHTWEIGHT SO THEY FLOAT.
They may be light, but they're also rooted into the soil, so they don't tend to float during flooding.
THAT IS WHY THERE AREN'T ALOT OF THEM IN THE LOWER LEVELS ON THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN. THEY ALL ARE NEAR THE TOP.
No, they're not all near the top. That's the thing.
There's plenty of plants found throughout the fossil record, top to bottom. The problem for creationists is that the kinds of plants you find changes as you go up or down the fossil column, and they never give any explanation for why this is the case. Flowers and grasses at the top, ferns throughout. A pattern that evolution explains but Noah's flood does not.
Paleobotany falsified the world-wide flood.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 141 (239214)
08-31-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by randman
08-31-2005 7:19 PM


Re: should be a rule
Any evo making the false argument that "kinds" is not defined is either ignorant or a hypocrite, imo. Bariminology is clearly the study of kinds, and the term itself is well-defined.
It's defined, but the definition is circular. Creationists posit that God originally created the animals in separate groups called "kinds", and then when you ask them what that means, they tell you that a kind is one of the original groups of animals that God created.
Perfectly circular, and thus, perfectly meaningless. A useful definition of "kind" would, among other things, suggest a criteria for determining if two similar animals are in the same kind, or in two different kinds.
No creationist to date has been able to do this. I notice too that you assert that "kinds" has some well-known definition - but you fail to tell us what that definition is.
The issue should be on the data itself, and seeing if the ideas have merit.
If the idea of "kinds" has merit, then you'll be able to devise at least some kind of metric for distinguishing kinds, as evolutionists have for "species." That no "baraminologist" (is there even such a person?) has even tried to do so is highly suggestive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 7:19 PM randman has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 141 (257891)
11-08-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 3:34 PM


Re: Schra ??
I would expect that the flood mechanisms of rain and subterranian volcanization, earthquakes, sunamis, etc. would have resulted in enourmous mixing, swirling, displacement and it would be remarkable to have lighter objects at the bottom plus fossilized grass must be fairly rare.
No, it turns out that fossil grass pollen is quite common indeed - right at the top. Totally consistent with evolution; a devastating contradiction of creationism.
In regards to sorting - in the fossil record, none of the really heavy objects, the large animals, are at the very bottom of the record. They're all in the middle-to-top area, reflecting again a position consistent with evolution, but totally contradictory to flood-creationism accounts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 3:34 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Evopeach, posted 11-08-2005 5:14 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 141 (257918)
11-08-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Evopeach
11-08-2005 5:14 PM


Re: Schra ??
I suggest you review The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris where you will find rather complete answers for your questions from a Phd in Geology and Hydrology having quite good credentials in text book writing and teaching etc. in these subjects.
I did. Didn't answer my questions.
How would one explain the fact that nowhere on earth is there a complete geologic column and there is no world-wide nonconformity.. period.
"No world-wide nonconformity"? I'm not sure what you mean. The very fact that the column has no world wide conformity at all is how we know that it's not the product of one big flood.
Your defining the creation account in your terms and then attacking it is called a logical fallacy.. straw man..
Sorry, but no. I'm simply pointing out how the flood as you've defined it is not consistent with any of the evidence that we observe.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 95 of 141 (258422)
11-10-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Evopeach
11-10-2005 10:06 AM


Re: On kinds
The main point is that kind after kind based on the internal seed which clearly is used to cover all life forms then extant is a totally remarkable and scientifically proven prediction of Creationism based on design.
Well, no, it's not. What has been scientifically proven is that all genomes are ultimately decended from a single ancestor; if there are any original "kinds" at all, there's only one - the common ancestor.
There's no evidence at all of some kind of limited mutability of genomes; the genomes of organisms are infinitely mutable through evolutionary mechanisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 10:06 AM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 12:40 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 141 (258497)
11-10-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Evopeach
11-10-2005 12:40 PM


Re: On kinds
Lets see that proof in a concise set of uncontested references
Well, wait, now. Concise? You're talking about analyses of the genomes of every living thing on Earth. And you expect that to be concise?
I recognize that you're not equipped to deal with a massive amount of highly technical scientific research, which is why you're asking for something concise. Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that, in fact, you do need technical knowledge in bioinformatics to understand or rebut the proof that all genomes ultimately decended from a common ancestor? Why do you suppose it is that scientists have to go to school for years to perform and understand this sort of research?
What made you think that you could simply dismiss all that work and proof simply because you're not equipped to understand it? Or are you trying to assert that evolution is false because the massive amount of proof for it can't be simply boiled down into a few paragraphs on a website? "Argument from too much proof." That's a new one, even among creationists.
And the variation within kinds like size, color, sugar concentration, kernals/head ect. ad finitum have nothing to do with mutation.
Untrue. We do know that all of those alternate alleles are the product of mutations on prior alleles; we've observed the process of mutation give rise to new, advantageous alleles both in the lab and in the wild.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 12:40 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 1:34 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 102 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 4:40 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 99 of 141 (258570)
11-10-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Evopeach
11-10-2005 1:34 PM


Re: On kinds
I take it you have no proof to offer just excuses.. noted for the record.
I've got plenty of proof. What's your background in bioinformatics?
That was selective breeding and had NADA to do with random mutation.
Not so. The initial variability between individuals in regards to sugar content was a result of random mutation.
Selection is not mutation, you're correct. But selection is meaningless on clones. The reason that there is variation within a population to begin with is the result of random mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 1:34 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 4:25 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 103 of 141 (258655)
11-10-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Evopeach
11-10-2005 4:25 PM


Re: On kinds
If you think natural selection based on waiting around while the mutant roulette wheel accidently falls on an allelle that is specifically tied to sugar concentration unguided, unknowingly time and time again in a sequential circumstance that results in 200% increase in concentration of sugar rather than articicail selection " selective breeding" then you are nuts
Am I?
Do you know how many mutations you have? I can tell you (within a certain bound.) Do you know?
Mutations happen considerably more often than you seem prepared to admit. If you're not aware of this, then you lack the background in genetics to intelligently address the issue.
There are non-mutant related variations within kind and every biologist in the world but you recognizes it..
No, there's not. All heritable variation within a population is ultimately related to genetic alleles; the only source of new alleles is mutation. That's accepted science. (By everyone but you, apparently.)
Can you provide your reference for "every biologist in the world"?
also known limits to such variation...
No known limits. Sorry, but you're simply wrong. There is no scientific evidence for any sort of "limit" to variation within a population. Mutation constitutes a limitless source of genetic novelty. Again, this is accepted science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 4:25 PM Evopeach has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 104 of 141 (258656)
11-10-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Evopeach
11-10-2005 4:40 PM


Re: On kinds
Can I see the gene that somewhere between the time I eat my eggs and ham,, digest it,, convert it to energy in ATP, transfer/transduce the energy into electrical impluses, transmit them through the central nervous system to my cerebral cortex,, etc. the gene that somewhere in there generates the cognitive thought, intellect, ect that permits me to analyze this entire process in the brain.
What's the evidence for your assertion that intelligent self-awareness in humans is genetic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Evopeach, posted 11-10-2005 4:40 PM Evopeach has not replied

  
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