An honest answer for a newbie, please.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

have you asked him to? it seems irrational to say he's incapable of something or that he hasn't tried when he's as close to you as a thought... if you call upon the Lord you will be saved... but you must want it to be so... do you?

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Have I asked? Many times. Did he answer? Not once.You see, many people assume that since I am an atheist it must mean that I have never tried to 'let God in' or some such and if only I woull do that then I would become a believer.I used to be a Christian and wanted to become a youth leader. To do that I needed to know the bible and god better so I started reading and praying. You know what happened? I became convinced that the whole shabang was a myth, a fairytale.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

he has, comp... why haven't you listened? why haven't you opened your heart?

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Don't make assumptions about what I have or haven't done.

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Originally posted by forgiven:
why don't people believe? why indeed... all i can do is what i can, all i can say is what i've heard... i won't beg you to listen for God's still, small voice... but i can and will beg him to speak louder... when he does, are you willing to listen? these are the facts, and i know they are true because i have a personal relationship with the one who wrote them in my heart

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I am always 'listening'. Why do you think I asked you to provide evidence that god exists? If I am wrong I want to know it. Where is the evidence, where is god. Nobody seems to be able to show me and god isn't helping either.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

can i make you believe? no...

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Yes you can, just show me the evidence.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

will God make you believe? no...

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He doesn't have to make me believe. If he existed and I saw the evidence I would believe.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

will he come to you if you call to him? most assuredly... he won't call for you, i can't call for you... but he listens for you... and you have my word i'll do what i can... i'll do all i can, and i'll do it right now

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Then why didn't he? It isn't hard. Surely if he is almighty he would have been able to answer?Maybe he just isn't there? Seems like the most reasonable explanation.------------------
compmage

^^^^
if, as you say, you studied the bible then you've read paul's epistle to the romans... if you did, you learned that God has given you external (creation) and internal (your concious) evidences of his existence... now what you're really saying is, you reject those evidences, prefering something more, some evidence of your choosing...you have the same evidences i had, comp.. you simply freely choose to reject those evidences... perhaps i'm just a simple man who thinks simple thoughts and is convinced by simple things... then again, perhaps i simply find creation itself to be overpowering evidence of a Creatorwe're all free to choose this day whom to trust, whom to believe, and whom to serve... i'd not want to deny you that freedom if i could... i have chosen... you have choseni won't argue with you nor will i attempt to prove to you that God exists... he's already done that... and i've already done what i'm called to do... someone else in your life planted... i tried to water... if there's to be any increase, it will come from God

[QUOTE]Originally posted by compmage:Appartly he does since het hasn't even bothered to put in an appearence. If god exists, he is either incapable of convincing me or doesn't want to try (for whatever reason) ... It is gods job then to convince me? Why hasn't he even tried? ... I am not asking for something that an omnipotent god would not be able to provide. If he realy loves me and has a plan for me why do I still not believe?[/B][/QUOTE]Compmage,Funk posted something very interesting in another thread that I think would be beneficial for you to read. Sometimes I think we ask God to talk to us and then get so busy looking for what we think is going to be the way, that we miss Him altogether.Don't you think that the reason forgiven is here talking to you about the Lord might be God reaching out to you.

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Originally posted by forgiven:
now what you're really saying is, you reject those evidences, prefering something more, some evidence of your choosing...

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No, what I am saying is there is NO evidence.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

you have the same evidences i had, comp..

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You mean you believe based on nothing?

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Originally posted by forgiven:

you simply freely choose to reject those evidences...

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There is nothing to reject.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

perhaps i'm just a simple man who thinks simple thoughts and is convinced by simple things... then again, perhaps i simply find creation itself to be overpowering evidence of a Creator

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Firstly, how do you know 'creation' was created?
Secondly, how do you know that, assuming it was created, your version of god did the creating?

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Originally posted by forgiven:

we're all free to choose this day whom to trust, whom to believe, and whom to serve... i'd not want to deny you that freedom if i could... i have chosen... you have chosen

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I can't trust, believe or server someone, if I don't even know if they exist. Then ofcourse, if I did know they existed I would have to decide if they are worthy of trust or service.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

i won't argue with you nor will i attempt to prove to you that God exists... he's already done that...

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If he had already done that I would be a believer. I am not, ergo he hasn't done anything.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

and i've already done what i'm called to do... someone else in your life planted... i tried to water... if there's to be any increase, it will come from God

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Translation: I don't have any evidence to show you.------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by Chara:

Compmage,

​

Funk posted something very interesting in another thread that I think would be beneficial for you to read. Sometimes I think we ask God to talk to us and then get so busy looking for what we think is going to be the way, that we miss Him altogether.

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There is only on way that I can trust and that is evidence. Evidence that I can show to other people so that they can examine it also. After which we can compare our observations and conclussions.

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Originally posted by forgiven:

Don't you think that the reason forgiven is here talking to you about the Lord might be God reaching out to you.

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That is always a possibility, unfortunately it is very far down the list. It is best to always examine your options from the most to the least likely and given that I have just as much evidence of god's existance as I have for an invisible pink unicorn (none), you will understand if I don't hold my breath.------------------
compmage

"Several reasons actually. Glad you asked. Imho, you post blurb-like and insubstantial one-liners until pressed into a corner. You accused me of arguing semantically and of producing an argument having no contact with the real world, all the while not producing any evidence to support your claim. And, at the end of it all, it is becoming damned apparent that you have been all along aware of the physics relevant to my claims. And you are sloppy in the way you present what I argue."
--The only reason you think that I am presenting your arguments sloppily is because you know what your arguing and I am simply trying to interpret your argumentation which I just so happened to interpret it as something it [I guess] was not. Excuse me for this. But what have I given that has not been supported or requires further evidence?"I am getting really tired of this repetition. The phrasing of my initial statement was that quantum fluctuations are intriguing or something to that effect. You latched on like a pit bull and stubbornly insist I am arguing something I am not. Add another to that list of why I bash your intellect and credibility. "
--I had the thought that your saying, "Notice the state of quantum weirdness? Notice the part about before the universe began" was indicative of trying to get a before space-time thing. Seeing as we already resolved the fact that I don't disagree with you about any of the unpredictability inferences and what-not."Which is exactly why the physics does not work. Which is exactly what I have been saying all along. Peculiar that you now pose as a defender of this idea and attempt to use it to score points against me."
--I earlier said, "Because when you have no space and no time, you have nothing, nothing is extant." and you replied by telling me to study some physics. There is, however, nothing in physics which contradicts my notion so why did you argue against it?"You really don't get it do you? I don't know if it will ever be resolved. I don't care which way the answer goes once it is resolved. If the answer proves something I've said wrong then so be it. "
--To me, that would be a hit square in the face for atheists, as well as agnostics."That would be division by an infinitesimal divisor, not division by zero. "
--No, you get the exact same result with dividing by zero as well as an infinitesimal divisor such as . Didn't you stop to watch that 'pretty picture' you gave earlier?"Bloody hell.... this is exactly the point to which you initially objected."
--No, I objected against creation ex-nihilo by the mechanisms you put forth."Same as always. I see no evidence for the existence of a God. Technically, I guess I'd be an agnostic, but that just doesn't have the same bite to it."
--An agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. Whether you can get a space-time ex-nihilo seems to be a nice application to the veracity of agnosticism. You don't even have something to go on to feed even your hope that you will discover the answer in the future."It is pretty obvious that something happened, but I don't have to know what that was."
--You should know it to make a confident decision of agnosticism or atheism."What I don't understand is how postulating yet another unverifiable thing -- ie. God-- make the situation less problematic. If it is troublesome with one open-ended question isn't it more troublesome still with two?"
--The reason God works in the situation, is because God is not confined to the limits of his inferred creation and their physics.------------------

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
The only reason you think that I am presenting your arguments sloppily is because you know what your arguing and I am simply trying to interpret your argumentation which I just so happened to interpret it as something it [I guess] was not. Excuse me for this. But what have I given that has not been supported or requires further evidence?

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Then maybe your should ask yourself why I had to spell out what I was actually arguing about half a dozen times before you actually got it. My guess is that you got on a tear about what you thought I meant and you stopped paying attention.

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I earlier said, "Because when you have no space and no time, you have nothing, nothing is extant." and you replied by telling me to study some physics. There is, however, nothing in physics which contradicts my notion so why did you argue against it?

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Something to think about, TC, when you have zero size, what have you? Can you have space and time at zero size? I don't think so. As to your 'nothing is extant' space at size zero does not necesarilly mean nothing is extant. Energy has reached ∞

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To me, that would be a hit square in the face for atheists, as well as agnostics.

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I don't know how a lot of things work, but I am not feeling terribly beaten up.

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An agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

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Encyclopedia of Philosophy under agnosticism, the first line in the article:

In the most general use of the term, agnosticism is the view that we do not know whether there is a God or not.

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Whether you can get a space-time ex-nihilo seems to be a nice application to the veracity of agnosticism.

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Taking creative writing lessons from Brad? What the hell is the veracity of agnosticism? The truth value of not knowing?

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You don't even have something to go on to feed even your hope that you will discover the answer in the future.

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And?

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You should know it to make a confident decision of agnosticism or atheism.

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BS. That I don't know is precisely why I say I don't know. If I had an answer I'd I wouldn't be AGNOSTIC would I? [quote]The reason God works in the situation, is because God is not confined to the limits of his inferred creation and their physics.[/B][/QUOTE]That doesn't change the fact that it is yet another unwarranted assumption. Maybe I want to claim that Fluffy the dirty terrier next door is outside the limits of creation and physics. Such claim has every bit the merit as yours.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

"Then maybe your should ask yourself why I had to spell out what I was actually arguing about half a dozen times before you actually got it. My guess is that you got on a tear about what you thought I meant and you stopped paying attention."
--No, its just that since we covered the fact that I don't disagree with you on your points of unpredictability and such, however you continued to assume that I did not. Because of this I thought you were referring to the prior space-time discrepancy."Something to think about, TC, when you have zero size, what have you? Can you have space and time at zero size? I don't think so. As to your 'nothing is extant' space at size zero does not necesarilly mean nothing is extant. Energy has reached "
--Yes you do have space time at zero volume. You earlier continued to argue against my notion that "zero = nothing", I later recanted my support to this because you do have space at zero volume."I don't know how a lot of things work, but I am not feeling terribly beaten up."
--You have nothing to even grab on to to feed your hope that there will be discovery in the future regarding the creation of space-time ex nihilo. This is highly significant in the rational of atheistic and agnostic perspectives."Taking creative writing lessons from Brad? What the hell is the veracity of agnosticism? The truth value of not knowing? "
--Yes it is the merit of whether actually can't know that there is a God or not. In all technicality, sure agnosticism has merit, though according to the principle of occums razor, there should be an entity which is supernatural. If you want to be agnostic about which God that would be, but that's still a theist."And?"
--This would make atheism & agnosticism irrational and illogical."BS. That I don't know is precisely why I say I don't know. If I had an answer I'd I wouldn't be AGNOSTIC would I?"
--No, an agnostic is one claims that they cannot know if there is a supernatural being or not. However, if it is true that you cannot have a naturalistic explanation[let alone any hope for one to be conjured up in the future] for creation ex nihilo, agnosticism is illogical."That doesn't change the fact that it is yet another unwarranted assumption."
--It is an assumption with support. Since supernatural by definition is above the natural, and something/someone which is above the natural is required."Maybe I want to claim that Fluffy the dirty terrier next door is outside the limits of creation and physics. Such claim has every bit the merit as yours."
--No, because I only gave support that there is something/someone above it, I didn't go on and say it is a 'fluffy dirty terrier next door' or something like that.------------------

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Yes you do have space time at zero volume. You earlier continued to argue against my notion that "zero = nothing", I later recanted my support to this because you do have space at zero volume.

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I think you are confusing "nothing" with the absense of spacetime.

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According to Stephen Hawking, as a black hole singularity forms, "it would be an end of time for the collapsing body" (Hawking, Stephen. A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes. New York: Bantam Books, 1988. p 88). This is because space-time (the 3 physical dimensions and the 4th dimension of time) does not exist at the singularity. A black hole singularity is analogous to what the Universe was, in theory, before the Big Bang when all matter was compressed into a very tiny point. Time, for us, began when that singularity expanded, creating 4 dimensional space-time.

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From:No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.eclipse.net/~cmmiller/BH/bhqa.html

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You have nothing to even grab on to to feed your hope

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I have hope that needs feeding? You assume a lot about my psychology. I hope there is an answer, but that's about it. It doesn't haunt my days and nights.

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This is highly significant in the rational of atheistic and agnostic perspectives.

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But you haven't exactly explained how have you? Why is it that I need to HAVE an answer in order to state that I DON'T HAVE an answer? Really, TC, what you are saying makes no sense.

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In all technicality, sure agnosticism has merit, though according to the principle of occums razor, there should be an entity which is supernatural.

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I'm sorry.... WHAT? We don't know the answer. Therefore, its God. That isn't even a proper argument. And violently violates poor Willem's razor.

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This would make atheism & agnosticism irrational and illogical.

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Again, how does not having an answer make the statement that I don't know the answer irrational? You are arguing nonsense. Please, it is painful.

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No, an agnostic is one claims that they cannot know if there is a supernatural being or not.

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Do you read my posts, TC? Here is a copy/paste from my last reply to you. Please read it this time.

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Encyclopedia of Philosophy under agnosticism, the first line in the article:

​

In the most general use of the term, agnosticism is the view that we do not know whether there is a God or not.

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However, if it is true that you cannot have a naturalistic explanation[let alone any hope for one to be conjured up in the future] for creation ex nihilo, agnosticism is illogical.

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Ah.... sneaky.... IF it is true that we cannot..... Is it true that we cannot? You haven't demonstrated that, nor even tried. I certainly didn't claim it. I said we may never know. This is not the same as saying it cannot be known. Saying that we don't understand is not the same as saying a thing is not understandable.

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It is an assumption with support. Since supernatural by definition is above the natural, and something/someone which is above the natural is required.

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You are supporting assumptions with more assumptions. What is your support for 'supernatural'? Where is 'above the natural'? How do we investigate this hypothesis?

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No, because I only gave support that there is something/someone above it, I didn't go on and say it is a 'fluffy dirty terrier next door' or something like that.

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You didn't give support, which is why fluffie is every bit the candidate as anything else.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 11-29-2002]

There is only on way that I can trust and that is evidence. Evidence that I can show to other people so that they can examine it also.You are free to believe or not to believe. If there were "evidence" like that that was non-subjective you would not be free to disbelieve.Throughout the NT Jesus is referred to as the "bridegroom". And it's not a shotgun wedding.

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Compmage,

​

Funk posted something very interesting in another thread that I think would be beneficial for you to read. Sometimes I think we ask God to talk to us and then get so busy looking for what we think is going to be the way, that we miss Him altogether.

​

Don't you think that the reason forgiven is here talking to you about the Lord might be God reaching out to you.

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How do you tell the difference between "the Lord God reaching out to you" and "God talking to us", and our own imagination and our own emotions?How do you know you are not fabricating a fantasy inside your own mind which is very reassuring and comforting, but completely imaginary?

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Originally posted by gene90:

You are free to believe or not to believe. If there were "evidence" like that that was non-subjective you would not be free to disbelieve.

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True, but I would be free to worship or not. As it stands, I can't bring myself to think that god exists without evidence and I can't
worship or reject a being that I don't think exists.------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
How do you tell the difference between "the Lord God reaching out to you" and "God talking to us", and our own imagination and our own emotions?

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How do you know you are not fabricating a fantasy inside your own mind which is very reassuring and comforting, but completely imaginary?

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That's an excellent question schraf and perhaps if all the "things I heard" (for lack of a better phrase in such a few words) were always reassuring and comforting, I might be inclined to believe that it was a fantasy. As a matter of fact, that's usually when I really wonder whether it is God I hear or just myself "self-talking." Man, I wish I was better with words!The times when I know for sure that I am "hearing" God is when I am prompted to recognize sin in my life, or when He is asking me to do something that is contrary to what I would normally do.Having said that, there is a real great danger is just listening to inner promptings and thinking that everything that I "hear" is from God, and that is where the Scriptures come in. Measuring the impressions, thoughts, etc. against the revealed will of God. Do they line up?I pray that I have made some sense in this reply, or at least made myself understood.{Fixed quote structure - AM}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-10-2002]

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Originally posted by Chara:

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
How do you tell the difference between "the Lord God reaching out to you" and "God talking to us", and our own imagination and our own emotions?

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How do you know you are not fabricating a fantasy inside your own mind which is very reassuring and comforting, but completely imaginary?

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​

That's an excellent question schraf and perhaps if all the "things I heard" (for lack of a better phrase in such a few words) were always reassuring and comforting, I might be inclined to believe that it was a fantasy. As a matter of fact, that's usually when I really wonder whether it is God I hear or just myself "self-talking." Man, I wish I was better with words!

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The times when I know for sure that I am "hearing" God is when I am prompted to recognize sin in my life, or when He is asking me to do something that is contrary to what I would normally do.

​

Having said that, there is a real great danger is just listening to inner promptings and thinking that everything that I "hear" is from God, and that is where the Scriptures come in. Measuring the impressions, thoughts, etc. against the revealed will of God. Do they line up?

​

I pray that I have made some sense in this reply, or at least made myself understood.

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I understand how you do things a bit better, but I am afraid that your response is still extremely vague. Not to mention that "the revealed will of God" as described in the Bible is also very vague and can be interpreted in very nearly any way one wishes it to be, depending upon who you ask or which of the hundreds of translations of the Bible one uses.It still sounds to me as though your thought processes are your conscince and your social training which you have internalized just like everybody else, Christian or not, religious or not.I mean, I have similar thoughts about how I might have, say, behaved poorly towards someone, but why attribute this to God?{Fixed quote structure - AM}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-10-2002]

I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this thread but I'll throw it out here anyway. I can see that there are alot of self-proclaimed agnostics out there. Hey, I know where ya are, in many ways I still am an agnostic but on the existence of God I'm not anymore. One of the best arguments for the existence of God is probably 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis or 'The God who is there' and 'He is there and not silent' by Francis Schaffer. They're not exactly evc books but they do deal with proofs for God's existence. These really helped me when I was asking myself all kinds of wierd questions (you think you're agnostic? at least you know you exist!). I don't know if these would help, but if you want to hear a theistic argument, the other side, you really should read these books.Evan