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Author Topic:   Problems with the Big Bang theory
JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 303 (366602)
11-28-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 7:15 PM


Something and nothing
You still didn't address my comment about something cannot come from nothing. There has to be something to "bang big", if you will, right?
Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately our common sense notions, derived from our limited experience, often turn out to be wrong when applied to something far out of the range of our experience. We don't directly see anything coming from nothing, the principle of conservation of energy is inviolate ... but when you look at the very small and the very large those rules change some. In particular, one of several speculations about "where it came from" is that it literally did come from nothing ... the average energy of the Universe may be zero (positive energy from mass, negative energy from gravitation) ... and the entire Universe may be a sort of quantum fluctuation on an incredibly large scale, all allowed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle but incredibly unlikely.
I don't know how seriously this idea is taken nowadays, and I don't know what the gamut of current speculation is, and I don't know what's currently the most likely candidate. People are thinking abut the question and trying to come up with testable hypotheses. It's difficult for many reasons.
But don't trust "common sense" in this matter. It'll lead you astray.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:07 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 91 of 303 (366880)
11-29-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 8:07 PM


Re: Something and nothing
First of all, it isn't a principle of conservation of energy, it's a one of the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Yup. And on cosmic scales it doesn't apply, and in quantum fluctuations it doesn't apply.
The universe being in a state of fluctuation doesn't explain how something can come from nothing
Actually, it does; you don't understand what a quantum fluctuation is. See Quantum FLuctuation. The possibility being considered is that of a large and long-lasting quantum fluctuation generating the universe from nothing. Certainly theoretically possible.
Lastly, common sense happens to be the best way to provoke good debates. Common sense, although it may not answer a lot of questions, can stimulate the though processes and maybe even help some people think a little more objectively.
Common sense may or may not be the best way to provoke good debates; that's not the subject. But it's definitely not a good way to theorize about things way outside our range of experience; we know that things come from nothing, we've seen it in many differnt ways, and we are pretty sure that conservation of energy doesn't apply to the entire universe.
From another message:
Show me proof that it can. Viable proof. Something that has been witnessed and documented? I don't think you can. Nothing has ever materialized from complete nothingness.
Actually, we see it every day; if things weren't continually materializing from complete nothingness (and almost always almost immmediately dematerializong back into complete nothingness) the world wouldn't work the way it does. But you might want to look at the Casimir effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:07 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-29-2006 6:52 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 92 of 303 (366881)
11-29-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phalanx
11-28-2006 8:19 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
By nothing, do you mean absolutely nothing, or just not from matter? Matter can be created from "nothing", think radiation from a black hole. Given enough energy, particles do just pop of out nowhere, in essence. Though, there is the energy required to make that happen, so they don't just pop out of nowhere.
The equvalence of mass and energy is not the phenomenon we're discussing. We are talking about virtual particles that do indeed just pop out of nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 8:19 PM Phalanx has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 97 of 303 (366964)
11-29-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by DivineBeginning
11-29-2006 6:52 PM


Re: Something and nothing
please describe a concrete example or don't respond please. Your just wasting my time!
The Casimir effect is a concrete example of matter coming from nothing. It's also the easiest esample to demonstrate and understand. There are plenty more, but they require a good deal more background knowledge than you have.
"Quantum fluctuation" isn't a particularly "big word", and if you don't understand what it means you don't belong in a discussion of cosmology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-29-2006 6:52 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-29-2006 8:59 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 303 (367063)
11-30-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by DivineBeginning
11-29-2006 8:59 PM


Re: Something and nothing
I have way more knowledge than you realize.
Perhaps so. All I have to go on is your posts in this thread, and they strongly suggest a lack of relevant knowledge.
All I was saying is that you fill your answers with terms rather than answering the question
The terms are the answers. I'm not going to compose or cut-and-past pages of technical explanations; I'm going to link to good explanations. If you don't understand the terms, follow the links and learn. You're not going to get answers without them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-29-2006 8:59 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 102 of 303 (367064)
11-30-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by DivineBeginning
11-29-2006 8:59 PM


Re: Something and nothing
I have way more knowledge than you realize.
Perhaps so. All I have to go on is your posts in this thread, and they strongly suggest a lack of relevant knowledge.
All I was saying is that you fill your answers with terms rather than answering the question
The terms are the answers. I'm not going to compose or cut-and-past pages of technical explanations; I'm going to link to good explanations. If you don't understand the terms, follow the links and learn. You're not going to get answers without them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-29-2006 8:59 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

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