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Author | Topic: universe- why is it here? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Morte Member (Idle past 5338 days) Posts: 140 From: Texas Joined: |
quote: (Ignoring the cause and effect for now, I can't seem to organize my thoughts well on it in a simple way... Instead...) What makes you think that the universe had a beginning just because of the Big Bang? It could have existed before that, as has been suggested by some, as something that expands and eventually (or quickly, depending on initial conditions) "collapses" into itself, only to repeat the cycle over and over - this just happened to be the time that the conditions were right for humans to come about. I think it was Alan Guth (correct if wrong) who said, "Although the creation of a universe might be very unlikely, [name I can't remember] emphasized that no one had counted the failed attempts." Or perhaps they had come about before, but when the universe collapsed no evidence would have been left. I don't actively believe the above (that is to say, I haven't really done enough research into the possibility of multiple Big Bangs to conclude anything personally. As far as I know it is still a possibility, though not a scientific one by nature - that is, it hasn't been disproven, just that there's no evidence for it), but just putting the idea out there to say that the Big Bang does not necessarily equal the beginning of the universe and time, just the beginning of the universe as we know it.
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Beercules Inactive Member |
quote: False dilemma. A universe of finite duration, yet uncaused is a possibility. quote: First of all, scientific theories are never proven. See this introduction to the scientific method. While the statement you posted above is false, I doubt any scientists in the relevant fields would claim the standard big bang model can provide an accurate description of the universe prior to a certain point. quote: Maybe it was Lucky the leprechaun? quote: AND quote: You're playing word games here. The big bang is an event. There is no reason there must necessarily be any prior events to that. If that's the case, then by your definitions this event was not an effect at all. If the primordial event is not an effect, you have no argument.
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lfen Member (Idle past 3913 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
What about a human is the image of God? I don't see how your conclusions follows from your premise. lfen
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 702 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Says you. On the other hand, chance and randomness have so far been the most accurate explanations of certain phenomena in the universe. Deterministic explanations have largely failed at the quantum level. God, it seems, plays dice with the universe. Classical theories can't explain quantum events. Only theories that take into account randomness are accurate, so far.
As you understand them, perhaps. But it doesn't work like that. You don't get to tell the universe how to operate according to your view of the laws of physics. Rather, you must derive the laws through observation of the universe, and in this universe, atoms decay randomly. Given a certain amount of time and a certain isotope, it's possible to predict roughly how many atoms should have decayed (this is the basis of radiometric dating, for instance) but not which ones have decayed.
As Ned said, that's circular reasoning. Whether the universe had a cause or not is the very thing under question. You can't simply assert it to be true. I say that the Big Bang happened, but was not caused because it's not an effect. If you propose a cause, then you must first establish that the universe is an effect.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5144 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
General Nazort
Sorry to let you know this but the last physicist was Einstein who believed the universe was ultimately decipherable and he was never able to break the success of quantum mechanics down to a level where we could determine a underlying reality.It has never been done and as it stands the laws of nature prohibit knowledge beyond a certain level by her very structure.This website does a great job of condensing the history of the foundation for quantum mechanics. http://books.nap.edu/books/0309076412/html/1.html#pagetop Uncertainty is woven into the fabric of the world.
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happy_atheist Member (Idle past 4149 days) Posts: 326 Joined: |
I might be wrong on this, but doesn't Belles Inequality (or at least the experiments testing it) show that there are no hidden variables in quantum mechanics and therefore no possibility of there being an "underlying theory" that would make quantum mechanics deterministic?
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8968 From: Canada Joined: |
I'm not sure but this grew out of one of the thought experiments of Einstein that he felt showed a problem with QM. It was then felt to be impossible to perform the experiment. However, it was possible and Einstein was wrong.
I'm not sure what that says for the underlying ideas beyond this particular issue. We need a real physicist for this one.
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happy_atheist Member (Idle past 4149 days) Posts: 326 Joined: |
Yes, Einstein and some others. It's entitled the Einstein, Podolsky, Rosenburg Paradox (sorry if I didn't spell those right). I'm sure he meant it to show a problem with quantum mechanics, but actually the exact same principle is used in teleportation.
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Darwin Storm Inactive Member |
I had this discussion with my college physics proffessor last sememster. According to him, (who has his PHD in particle physics), the basis of QM, the wavefunction, represents all we can know about a given defined system. That simply means that while there may or may not be something below that level, it is physically impossible (as far as we know, but most likely true) to determine anything beyond this level. So, while there may be underlying mechanics beneath this level, it is impossible to test, and therefore outside teh reach of science. In fact, there are several ideas out there to explain the mechanics, but none are testable, and therefore none are truly scientific explanantions.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5144 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Darwin Storm
If you think that is the end of the story check this out.
No doubt that the weirdness of quantum mechanics has only just begun. We live in interesting times.
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Darwin Storm Inactive Member |
That we do, there are still many avenues of physics that have yet to be explored. The article is interesting, but without notation of its source, or any linked experimental data, its nothing more than that. However, it still doesn't claim to explain the underlying reasons or provide a theory of QM. It just allows you to take other form of measurements. The real question, however, is if the experiments result in any more information than can be extracted from the wavefunction. If not, it still only provides a new tool to investigate. Another interesting avenue of research is decoherence, which is the event where the wavefunction collapses. The actual pehnomena occurs so quickly that at first it was though to be undetectable, but modern techniques have been to developed to examine this aspect of qm. In fact, certain moloecules that are normaly to large to exhibit QM effects have produced in a lab which are still bound by QM effect, but on a scale 1000's of times larger than is normally the bound for decoherace. Hopefully, we will be able to learn more about the acutal phenomena of collapsing wavefunction, which would be yet another piece of the puzzle.
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happy_atheist Member (Idle past 4149 days) Posts: 326 Joined: |
Sorry to digress, but I just wanted to raise a question I have about the causation of the universe that was being mentioned before.
Is it logical to say that the universe has a cause? How would such a cause be defined? Causation (as I understand it) is a temporal effect. Causes precede and determine the effect. But logically there is no "before" the universe since time is a part of the universe. Saying "before the universe" would be akin to saying "north of the north pole"....it just doesn't exist. When you're at the north pole the only direction possible is south. When you're at t0 the only temporal direction is "after". To me this illustrates the way that what humans consider true and natural is more often than not very wrong and misleading when applied to situations beyond our normal comprehension. This message has been edited by happy_atheist, 08-24-2004 05:34 AM
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 740 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Saying the universe has no cause would assume you do not exist, and since you are reading this something 'caused' you. If something caused you then would it not be logical to think that something caused the universe as well. Whether that was a random quantum event or A devine creator. I realize there are those who contend the universe is just an extenstion of perpetual universes. Irrespective of human perspective, natural law dictates how reality plays out. Post T=0 is all humans will ever be able to fathom, beyond that is mere speculation and fantasy depending on whether you are atheist or religous. IMO.
![]() "One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
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Darwin Storm Inactive Member |
Well, cause and effect may well be a property inherent in the universe, like gravity and electromagnetism. However, when you talk about a singularity, or other possible events related to the big bang, we can't be sure that the current fine structure of the universe held at that point. Cause and effect, thermodynamics, ect might have had no meaning in the intial event.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 740 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Bingo daddyo. "One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
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