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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 380 (467990)
05-26-2008 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Agobot
05-26-2008 3:05 AM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
General Relativity is quite important when discussing the reality of time. According to General Relativity time can be physically bent by mass. Also this is a confirmed prediction of General Relativity.
Hence we have evidence that time is a physically real thing. I know of very few man made concepts that can be bent in a physically real sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Agobot, posted 05-26-2008 3:05 AM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 380 (468373)
05-29-2008 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Straggler
05-28-2008 4:42 PM


Symmetry
A symmetry is basically when some change is applied to physical system and that change doesn't affect the system. The symmetry is global if the same change is applied everywhere. It is local if a different change is applied at each location.
Straggler writes:
How are symmetries and laws of conservation related?
For every global symmetry there is a corresponding conservation law.
Symmetry under time translation => Conservation of energy
Symmetry under space translation => Conservation of momentum
Symmetry under rotations => Conservation of angular momentum
Symmetry under complex number rotation => Conservation of electric charge.
e.t.c.
Straggler writes:
Can you explain further the idea of symmetry breaking?
Symmetry breaking is when the laws of physics appear differently to you, due to some condition of your environment.
A very rough analogy is conservation of momentum. Momentum is always conserved, however here on earth when you throw a ball it appears to lose momentum and fall to the ground. Of course this is due to the friction with air. However having air as a background rather than truly empty space means the effective physics on earth is quite different to the true physics. Symmetry breaking is basically when some background thing (Air, a field, e.t.c.) causes physics to appear different.
Straggler writes:
Also the Higgs mechanism and the role of the Higgs Boson?
The Higg's field is currently in it's vacuum state. That is the state with lowest energy. This Higg's vacuum causes the electroweak force to effectively seperate. Just like air causes an effective loss of conservation of momentum.
Straggler writes:
Does the breaking of a symmetry in this context (the electroweak split) result in the separation of a conservation law?
No, because electroweak symmetry is a local symmetry. Only global symmetry is associated with conservation laws. To be totally accurate however a global symmetry does get destroyed in electroweak symmetry breaking. In that case the symmetry is gone.
Now might be a good time to demonstrate the power of mathematics in physics.
Let's say I have the field which describes electrons, called the dirac field. Then I say that I want this field to have a symmetry under rotations by a complex number. Further more I want this field to be symmetric under local rotations by a complex number, that is the complex number I'm rotating by can be different at each point in spacetime. Now that I demand this, I work through the mathematics and see what it implies. Basically it implies the existence of the electromagentic field.
This works with all local symmetries, so basically:
Global symmetries means conservation laws.
Local symmetries means existence of a new force.
To give another example local symmetry of multiplication by a 3x3 matrix implies the existence of gluons and the strong force.
Edited by Son Goku, : Update and edit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 05-28-2008 4:42 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 05-29-2008 5:54 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 380 (468503)
05-29-2008 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
05-29-2008 5:54 PM


Re: Symmetry
Straggler writes:
I appreciate that this might be getting to the point where
A) Maths becomes the only meaningful method of describing these things
B) I am completely out of my depth
C) It becomes too time consuming for you to try and explain
I wouldn't worry about this, we're still well within what can be explained if my previous post was understandable. This stuff I find far easier to explain than black holes and general relativity.
From which symmetries are the conservation of spin and color derived?
I'll get to color in a moment. Conservation of spin is basically also derived from symmetry under rotations. If your working with classical systems symmetry under rotations implies conservation of angular momentum only. However with a quantum system symmetry under rotations implies conservation of angular momentum and spin. Basically it's the same symmetry but QM adds an extra quantity.
I don't understand the term "Higgs field". I get the concept of the 4 fundamental forces of nature as fields but what is the Higgs field? What role does the Higgs boson play in the Higgs field? Is it the "force carrier" particle?
You essentially have it.
Electromagnetic field -> Photon
Higgs field -> Higgs boson
Dirac field -> Electron.
Can you explain how this works in more detail?
What makes it local rather than global?
Everytime you demand that a matter field like the dirac(electron) field, be symmetric under some local symmetry, you instantly get a new force field.
How it works is that you start with the equations for the matter field on its own and then try to make the equations symmetric under the local symmetry of your choice. If you go through the maths, you will see that the only way to do this is to introduce a new field, which is a force field, like the gluon field. This process is far more natural than I'm making it sound, the field just appears automatically.*
The point of this is that you know have a mathematical theorem:
Local symmetry = New force.
So physicists just started trying out local symmetries and looking at the forces they implied, to see if any of the forces were the strong nuclear force. Basically the appropriate local symmetry was multiplication by a 3x3 complex number matrix as I mentioned.
By the way this study of the forces implied by local symmetries is called Yang-Mills theory. For the electroweak force the appropriate local symmetry is, without getting to technical, multiplication by a 2x2 complex number matrix.
Now here is another fact. It will seem like word salad at first. If a local symmetry implies the existence of a force, the corresponding global symmetry implies conservation of the charge associated with that force.
A simple example is electromagnetism. The electromagnetic fields existence is implied by local symmetry under multiplication by a complex number. Electric charge is conserved due to global symmetry under multiplication by a complex number.
The strong nuclear fields existence is implied by local symmetry under multiplication by a 3x3 complex number matrix. Color charge is conserved due to global symmetry under multiplication by a 3x3 complex number matrix.
*In fact it's much more mathematically natural than even physicists understood at first.
Edited by Son Goku, : Small addition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 05-29-2008 5:54 PM Straggler has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 380 (468505)
05-29-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
05-29-2008 5:54 PM


Re: Symmetry
Straggler writes:
As such can you reccommend any books that are of a suitable level that might shed some light on the basics of these topics? I am not mathematically illiterate but rusty is an undertatement. My undergraduate physics course was all too long ago.................
"The Second Creation" by Crease and Mann. It is honestly the only book that goes through this stuff intelligently without mathematics. Also it's a great read. If you undertand the buzzwords, like Yang-Mills as I have explained them above, you'll get even more out of it.
I should correct a slight error in my previous post. The study of the forces implied by local symmetry is called gauge theory. When the local symmetry is a nice complex matix symmetry, we call it Yang-Mills theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 05-29-2008 5:54 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by cavediver, posted 05-30-2008 10:09 AM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 380 (468569)
05-30-2008 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by cavediver
05-30-2008 10:09 AM


Re: Symmetry
It's Robert P. Crease, Professor of Philosophy, Stoney Brook university and Charles C. Mann a very good general science writer.
If you've ever read Pais' "Inward Bound" it is quite similar, but less technical.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 380 (469504)
06-05-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Buzsaw
06-05-2008 6:41 PM


Re: Curved
Space has two measurable properties. Its Weyl curvature and its Ricci curvature. More simply we may say it has curvature. The presence of such curvature has been measured by several satellites in orbit. Also we have evidence of such curvature from lensing of distant galaxies, where their apparent shape is distorted by the curvature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2008 6:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2008 9:43 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 380 (469569)
06-06-2008 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Buzsaw
06-05-2008 9:43 PM


Re: Curved
Well first of all, it acts exactly like curvature. Secondly, the satellites in a sense directly measure the curvature of space, rather than test the effects we associate with curvature. You see there is a standard way to calculate/measure the curvature of a space/spacetime. The satellites simply carry out that procedure and have found a non-zero curvature of spacetime in the vicinity of Earth.

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 Message 268 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2008 9:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 380 (469805)
06-07-2008 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Buzsaw
06-07-2008 5:15 PM


Re: Curved
Matter occupies spacetime. However regions of space and matter can both posses mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2008 5:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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