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Author | Topic: bulletproof alternate universe | |||||||||||||||||||
Beercules Inactive Member |
Jon F pretty much sumed it up. Anyone can come up with an idea that cannot be disproven by science. That's because science is neutral to metaphysics. There are creationists who believe God created the universe 6,000 years ago with the appearance of age, while others believe a magic, demonic entity planted evidence of an old universe to deceive us. As far as science is concerned, those ideas are quite irrelevant. All that science deals with is the observable universe.
As such, I don't see how this topic is relevant here. This forum is about cosmology, which is a science. What in the world does the existence of a magic/spiritual/invisble world even remotely have to do with science?
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Beercules Inactive Member |
You have a lot to learn about science. I think it would be beneficial if you took the time to learn about this before continuing here. To clarify, science is a method and a body of evidence. The scientific method is restricted to explaining natural phenomena, which means the obseravble universe. This explanation for observable phenomena is generally a casual explanation, though in the case of physics this consists of a mathematical relation(s). This model must be able to explain all available experimental evidence and observations.
Where science is different from religion and other methods, is that it is not enough for these models to explain the pre existing data. Every scientific hypothesis must make testible predictions about the observable universe. In other words, the model must also predict new, as of yet undiscovered phenomena. When a model has made several successful predictions, the hypothesis becomes a theory and is considered a very useful explanation. Notice how there is no mention of metaphysics, or anything beyond models that can successfully explain observable phenomena and predict new ones. That is all there is to it. Since science says nothing about anything outside the observable universe, it is completely neutral to any specualtions about such a thing. Some further clarifications on your post:
quote:Why is this important to you? I can also not disprove that Zeus is really the source behind the experiments with atom smashers, or that ghosts and gremlins are lurking in a parallel universe. So what? Those can never be disproven because they are not testible. In other words, they do not predict any unique state of the observable world that would allow us to know the difference between theri existence and nonexistence. This hardly strengthens your position. quote:There is a difference between not being able to observe something because of technological limits, and because a hypothesis is untestible in principle. To claim there is an invisible, non physical world or that gremlins exist in a hidden universe cannot be tested in principle, because the existence of said entities does not make a difference to the observable universe. No amount of technology will allow us to observe magic, since by definition it is not part of the physical universe. You're certainly welcome to believe any metaphysics you want, just don't embarass yourself as so many creationists do by calling it science.
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Beercules Inactive Member |
quote:Oh? What predictions about the observable universe does this little idea of yours make? What natural phenomena can we expect to find? quote:You're not getting it so I'll simplify: How can we detect the existence of this world? What phenomena in the observable world should we be looking for that is predicted by this idea you have? Just list any of them. If it can't be tested even in principle, it's not science. quote:Ghosts, leprechauns, UFO's, blah blah blah. That has nothing to do with science or the discussion here. Just answer my question above. quote:Your opinion probably doesn't carry much weight, since you've demonstrated you don't even know what science is. What I've described is the scientific method, and it's the method used by scientists. Maybe you don't like it or wish it included metaphysics, but too bad. Science gets results, period. quote:What in the world are you talking about now? quote:Let's evaluate, shall we? You've posted a metaphysical idea on a science board, claiming it to be bulletproof against science. There is nothing wrong with that in it's own right. But posters here have explained to you why it's bulletproof, and why it has nothing to do with science. But now you are claiming this supernatural idea is scientific. Yet you can't be bothered to spend the slightest amount of time learning what science actually is, and for some reason still feel the need to argue about it. You're arguing about something you know nothing about. So yes, you're making an embarrassment of yourself, whether or not you're capable of seeing it.
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Beercules Inactive Member |
quote:That's funny, because not so long ago you claimed this idea of yours was bulletproof against science. If you can predict the time these events will happen, your idea would be in danger of being falsified when that time comes. Actually, it doesn't really matter. All you're doing is making wild (and silly) guesses about what will happen in the future. Go back and read my post explaining what science is. Recall that a scientific model is a. an casual explanation for some observable phenomena and b. an explanation that predicts new phenomena in the process. In order for a hypothesis to be scientific, it must satisfy both critera, or it fails to be science. If I were to claim there are gremlins from another dimension, and then make a prediction that they will attack New York in the future, do I have a scientific hypothesis? Of course not. The idea of gremlins is not an explanation for any observed phenomena, and the predictions do not follow from such. Likewise, even the most comprehensive explanation of any given phenomena is not scientific if it is not testible in principle. Both factors are needed for a scientific theory, as I hope you can see by now.
quote:This is another important aspect of science that needs to be highlighted, and is an aspect that sets it apart from metaphysics. Any experiment must be repeatable by anyone, regardless of their personal beliefs or other biases. As an example, an observer performing an experiment with an atom smasher will get the exact same results as the next observer. It doesn't matter what beliefs an individual has, because the experiment will yeild the same results. Can you perform an experiment where everyone will see a ghost/spirit? Of course not. Likewise, if a scientific model predicts certain astronomical phenomena on a certain date, anyone with access to the sky will be able to verify it. This is not the case with UFO's are other similar sightings because they are unpredictible. Certainly, it is easy to demonstrate that many people believe they have seen ghosts. But this is not a new phenomena. People have been seeing ghosts for the past 5000 years, and so this kind of phenomena cannot be claimed as a prediction. This is what is called a post - diction.
quote:You can believe it is less important, but I think something that actually gets results is a much more productive methodology. On the other hand, there is no reason for you to take a branch of science you haven't taken any time to understand (such as cosmology) and call it nonsensical. How do you know a model is nonsensical if you don't even know what the model actually is? quote:Perfect example of what I posted above. There is no model that claims the early universe was a speak. What we do have is a prediction of a very successful cosmological model that claims the early universe was very hot and dense. The hot dense universe is not a scientific hypothesis. It is the prediction of a theory. Scientists agree with this prediction (even though it can't be observed) because the model has made several other accurate predictions and is considered a useful working theory.
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Beercules Inactive Member |
I'm also sure several people here are now much dumber for having read the drivel in this thread. Then again, I should know better. When you live in a fantasy world, who needs science? This forum needs a FAQ on the scientific method to avoid silliness like this.
[This message has been edited by Beercules, 03-28-2004]
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