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Author Topic:   if Nothing is Nothing then why a God?
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 40 (44909)
07-03-2003 1:57 AM


wasn't sure where to post this move this if its in the wrong Place.
Now Alot of Creationists Seem to Use this as the Basis Of their Belief
"Noting can't Become something" . but to me Isn't this alittle Hypocritical? since None can answer where God came from?
I realize That it seems Easier to Just Believe in God. But do none of them stop to think about this? I mean A God can't be noting..... so how is it something? I mean if their is a God their then where did it come from? what made it? and then that? to Me this Complicates it Even more then anything else..........
if you can Believe In god why is it Hard to Believe the Universe Came out of Nowhere?
The problem is our Simplistic thinking "Because everything in Our little world is Made therefore everything must be made"
this is another thing.... even with the Big Bang. Again our Simplistic Minds "everything must have a start and an end" when for all we know the Universe has always been here and will always be here!

I would like to hear from both Views

[This message has been edited by DC85, 07-03-2003]


Replies to this message:
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 Message 13 by ::, posted 07-24-2003 3:45 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
compmage
Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 2 of 40 (44916)
07-03-2003 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
07-03-2003 1:57 AM


I think it ties in with the fact that many people find it easy to imagine a future eternity but don't seem to be able to do the same when applied to the past.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 3 of 40 (44987)
07-03-2003 2:24 PM


I have a hard time thinking the Universe has always been here aswell but it still doesn't mean it wasn't. if a God can be infinante why not the entire Universe?
    
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 40 (45006)
07-03-2003 7:44 PM


It's just a matter of lazy thinking, which creationists are notorious for. For some reason, they insist that everything that exists must have a cause, yet God is somehow exempt from this logic. Of course, I'm ignoring creationists who flat out do not believe in logic. Nasty tool of the devil.
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DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 5 of 40 (45023)
07-04-2003 1:34 AM


I wish some creationists would Reply I really want to hear what they think..... they never seem to post in my topics.........
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 40 (45243)
07-06-2003 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by DC85
07-04-2003 1:34 AM


i guess i am cre' so here you are.
if i think simplistic about everything i think everything must be made , is that what your trying to say? well i do not think God was made i think he has been forever . put simply , in my mind he is circular (shaped) , without beginning without end.thats simple but easy to understand!
however the universe is not a circle but a line , with a beginning and probably an end .there an insight into my bizarre mind.lol
This message is a reply to:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 40 (46158)
07-15-2003 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
07-06-2003 8:11 PM


never thought I'd ask this but....
Mike, why is God circular?

PE


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 07-15-2003 7:41 PM Primordial Egg has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 8 of 40 (46161)
07-15-2003 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Primordial Egg
07-15-2003 7:06 PM


Re: never thought I'd ask this but....
What i mean by this is that God is likened unto a circle.You see a circle has no beggining or end , it has no finishing point like a line.Many things in life are circular like.The earth,the sun and the solar system.The weather cycle , get my drift. He asked why i think everything should be made well I do not think God was made simply because he has always been there . I know it's a strange thing to think about , like the universe being infinite , it's simply mind boggling.

(Forgive my poor punctuation and spelling.)

[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-15-2003]


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John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 40 (46169)
07-15-2003 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
07-15-2003 7:41 PM


Re: never thought I'd ask this but....
quote:
I do not think God was made simply because he has always been there.

If this same claim were made of the universe would you accept it? "I do not think the universe was made simply because it has always been there."

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 739 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 10 of 40 (46313)
07-17-2003 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
07-15-2003 7:41 PM


Re: never thought I'd ask this but....
Mike,
Why should we forgive you for your punctuation and spelling, if even you yourself think they are poor? Do something about it, I say. It would sure help us to take your arguments more seriously (or even understand them).

It may seem unfair to focus on how people say things instead of on what they say, but in my experience, people with poor language skills tend to be poorly educated overall. You would do yourself a huge favour if you'd compose your prose with a little more care because, that way, people like me would be more inclined seriously to address the actual points you make.

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 07-17-2003]


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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 40 (46425)
07-18-2003 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
07-15-2003 7:41 PM


Re: never thought I'd ask this but....
Thanks Mike - I thought thats what you meant but wasn't sure. With a circle, there may be no beginning or end but you always get back to the same point which is then repeated.

If the universe were to end with a big crunch (and then a big bang etc etc) would this also not be circular in exactly the same way?

PE


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DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 12 of 40 (47036)
07-23-2003 10:20 AM


what I am asking really with this topic is why is it. you can believe a god has always been their but not the Universe itself? why did it need to be created? and why doesn't a god?
    
:: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5227 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 13 of 40 (47320)
07-24-2003 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
07-03-2003 1:57 AM


The Universe and Nothing
DC85 writes:

if you can Believe In god why is it Hard to Believe the Universe Came out of Nowhere?


A proper understanding of physics or even conventional language (not saying that you lack this understanding) reveals that there is indeed no such thing as "nothing" in the real world. It should be plainly obvious that the statement "Nothing exists" is an oxymoron. "Nothing" is a state of complete non-existence, and to assert that "non-existence exists" is tautologically false. From that it is not difficult to understand that existence has always existed by definition -- no Creator necessary.

Blessings,

::

[This message has been edited by ::, 07-24-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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Culverin
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 40 (47331)
07-24-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Beercules
07-03-2003 7:44 PM


So lazy it's hazy
Creationists are not, in fact lazy, they are realists.
Whether the universe and/or God have always existed or not, does not make a difference logically.
Logic dictates that there is no way to prove that God DOESN'T exist.
The real question is.... Will we always exist from now on?
(unless you want to slip right into the ethereal and ask: Do we actually exist?)
I say this because rational and logical thinking should lead us to a place where we ask questions that are relevent to our personal survival and our fulfillment in the current moment. I doubt that I will have time in my limited hours and days of breath to work out where God or the universe came from. It has yet to be philosophized or theorized into a scientifically provable method in the 3,000 to 4,000 years of recorded history so I can be pretty certain that I won't be given an answer in the near future.
So what we are all here for on this site is the eternal question...... Why?
Creationists say God. The rest say... something else.

Without God, we have no purpose.
Without God, we also do not have a concrete foundation upon which to lay mores of Good and Evil.
Without God, everything is relative.
Without God, you have no reason to expect an afterlife and therefore, to expect consequences to your actions in this life.
Without God, you are justified to do what you like, when you like, to whatever or whoever you like, as long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, in this life.
Without God, love has no rational long term reward and it is logically proveable that there is greater pleasure in seeking material gain and stepping on those that get in your way.
Without God, the universe has no meaning.
Without God I hate you all because it does not matter that I do.

But with God, I have purpose. Love has purpose.
With God, there is a chance that there is more to our existence than meets the eye.
With God, right and wrong, good and evil, up and down are all only subject to God's creation and not man's ideals.
With God, I can explain my existence in terms that do not lead to dispair, hatred and separation of self.
With God, I am defined and do not have to worry about my own self definition.
With God, I love you all because he put Christ in me and now there is a good reason to.

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." - Colossians 2:8

------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.


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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 40 (47336)
07-24-2003 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Culverin
07-24-2003 5:26 PM


Re: So lazy it's hazy
quote:
Logic dictates that there is no way to prove that God DOESN'T exist.

Actually, logic prevents you from making this challenge. The one asserting something's existence is the one who has to back it up.

quote:
Without God, we have no purpose.

Save that which we create for ourselves.

quote:
Without God, we also do not have a concrete foundation upon which to lay mores of Good and Evil.

Except for what will be best for the continued interaction of large numbers of people.

quote:
Without God, everything is relative.

True. So?

quote:
Without God, you have no reason to expect an afterlife and therefore, to expect consequences to your actions in this life.

Except for those consequences which occur within this lifetime, true. So?

quote:
Without God, you are justified to do what you like, when you like, to whatever or whoever you like, as long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, in this life.

True. Are you going somewhere with these?

quote:
Without God, love has no rational long term reward

Except, of course, for love.

quote:
Without God, the universe has no meaning.

Except for the meaning we give it.

quote:
Without God I hate you all because it does not matter that I do.

Well, that's unfortunate. But it says more about you than it does about anything else.

quote:
But with God, I have purpose.

That's cool. Run with that. Me, I have many purposes. With my writing and drawing, I have a purpose. With my girlfriend, I have a purpose. With my friends, I have a purpose. With a thousand other things I have a thousand other purposes.

quote:
With God, there is a chance that there is more to our existence than meets the eye.

Why does this rely on God?

quote:
With God, right and wrong, good and evil, up and down are all only subject to God's creation and not man's ideals.

Man's ideals are that scary, huh?

quote:
With God, I can explain my existence in terms that do not lead to dispair, hatred and separation of self.

Again, this says more about you than it does about anything else.

quote:
With God, I am defined and do not have to worry about my own self definition.

Ew. That sounds horrible.

This all sounds more like a failure of imagination on your part than it does a case for God. Is God really the only way you can find any meaning or happiness in life? If so, I feel sorry for you.


This message is a reply to:
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