Universal Perfection

Hi,We are the product of extraterrestrial gene maniputlation, but don't despair there is some great importance placed within us. The bible and all the other stories of creation from other cultures are all connected. Edgar Cayce and others have been noted for their connections to the other worlds. Prior Civilizations and alien contacts are intertwined in our history. How about the angels and the symbols of a reptilian race laced throughout earths past. How about the dinosaurs, the great flood and the annuaki. How about the fact that all of the visible universe's stars outnumber the grains of sand on earth. Think about the ocean and all the life that exists there. We are just a local soap opera probably with alien life involved in a treaty with us right now. Any thoughts.

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JustinCy: Apparently, since life exists. Isn't it also tuned to produce giant gaseous planets, nebula, atoms, oceans, etc. (Sorry for poor examples, imagination doesn't work well in the morning)
Isn't that just like saying, "The universe it tuned in such a way to make everything that exists exist"? Seems like tautology, and I don't think any important point can be made from it.

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/*DNAunion*/ I disagree. Among the items you listed - and indeed among all known items in the Universe - life is unique and special: a living organism is the most complex, most highly organized, most informationally rich, and most specified collective unit of matter in the entire Universe. Since life stands far above the other items you listed in terms of organization and so on, it requires special conditions that the others don't require: those special conditions, in turn, require an explanation.

You people do not even understand different dimensions. You are so narrow minded but very intelligent, but not that intelligent that you do not understand the universe and its origin. You are mere elementary students when it comes to science. Quantum mechanical physics, the speed of gravity most likely much faster than the speed of light make you mere pikers in defining the origin of the universe. Think of your third eye and the real meaning of gold to begin your search of the first clue. Remember DNA and the order to the universe and work backwards. Keep it simple stupid. Tesla was ahead of Einstein.

I didn't misunderstand you.You wrote this:
" The fact is the universe is perfect FOR life on earth. If it's 99.9 whatever percent inhabitable, that would agree with my thoughts which are , that life on earth is probably the only life in the universe. If the universe was any different it would not be 'just right' which, as I see it CAN mean Creation , rather than an explosion which comes about by chance and somehow accidentally creates a perfect system. "I know you clearly think all this points towards creation.
Too bad you you are not open-minded enough to see that the last part of your arguemnt is invalid:"rather than an explosion which comes about by chance and somehow accidentally creates a perfect system."When you say "somehow creates a perfect system" you are already placing all your beliefs in that the system must be designed for humans as a lifeform!
Don't you see?
Since I dont think humans were intelligently designed, I dont need the universe to be intelligently designed either. We are a result of our surroundings. The surroundings are not a result of us.
It all comes down to that we are perfectly fitted into earth because we live here.If the universe was created in any other way, we would not sit here.
If life started somehow, in that other universe, following other laws, it would have become something else. If you had a soul-mate in that other universe, some strange beeing in that other reallity, he (it?) might think: Damn im lucky that everything works as it does beacuse otherwise how could i exist? It must be created just so for me!
(But hey, you now know it isnt so. He is just one of an infinite number of possible universes that could have been created, with an infinite number of possible lifeforms evolved into it)The universe is not perfected to fit us. We are perfectly fit the universe. Because we slowly evolved into this spot.

All known knowledge in micro-biology is worthless information in an alternate universe, with other laws and matter-constructs. The basic forces that molds life, evolution, is whats important. It works in any system. This is more of an information issue.
Sure if you change some physical constants a tiny bit carbon based lifeforms as we know it become impossible, on exactly this level it exists now.Life is something that can replicate and has a form of awareness (the abillity feel its surroundings at some level). To do so it needs energy. There are a multitude of ways to concieve something that replicates and is not made from carbon.Apart from that there is actually an infinite number of ways matter could have been assembled. And an infinite number of weird laws that could be aplied to it. How can you even start to claim life cant come from that ?

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those special conditions, in turn, require an explanation

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I didn't say they don't require an explanation. I'm saying you cannot jump to any "why" conclusions (i.e. ID) because things are the way they are.JustinC

Now you have explained further, I understand how my comment might not have made sense. Ofcourse I am creationist, and admitt my views are creationist.You made Fair points, but I still think it can be the opposite. I still believe intelligent design. I also do not think you can get order from some sort of big bang, which I think would make a big mess. Did any bomb you have heard of create order.lolWhere's my new buddy Rei[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-01-2003]

You cannot seriously believe that the Big Bang is even remotely similar to explosions we produce here on earth.If so you should read up the actual ideas behind what the BB constitutes and you will understand that the comparisons is invalid.try this website.
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

Did you notice the 'lol' at the end of the sentence. It's obviously not my 'big argument'. Good article, an explosion within space eh? So the bits can't go everywhere.To be honest, I still dont think this explosion is the answer. I cannot accept that order could have came in the way it has, solar systems e.t.c

And what would it take to convince you that it can? Nothing?In fact, the physics behind how this can happen is understood. There are lots of details of course, but there is clearly nothing stopping it from happening. What do you think does?Mike, you are entitled to your beliefs. Just understand that they have no science behind them at all. None, zip,nada. From a scientific persprective you are simply wrong! You're inability to accept something because you both don't like it and because you haven't put an once of real effort into understanding it means nothing outside of your tightly bounded view of the world.Believe what you will. Do not think for a minute that you can make any claims about what science teaches us about the world around us.

Where did this come from? I didn't mention science. We are debating at the evc. Scientists tell me things.
Hugh Ross would disagree. Infact his programme about the creation event indicates that I have no reason to believe in the big bang whatsoever. Infact his programme was very scientific, and it made a lot of sense.'Just understand that they have no science behind them at all. None, zip,nada.'As far as I am concerned the big bang is a belief you hold, not me.'you haven't put an once of real effort into understanding it means nothing outside of your tightly bounded view of the world.'Unecessary comment, message 1 was a question, have you read it. Now why would I ask a question Ned? Could it be to know more about it? and I know more already. Sidelined gave me a website. You were correct to say I can believe what I will, I'm not a total fool and most of the time my mind is open.

Is it not true that the universe seems to be just right for the possibility and indeed fact of life? - answered
If the universe was any smaller or bigger would Oxygen be a certainty? - not answered
What about the effects of gravity aswell? - not answered-These sound like questions to me. Maybe I should go elsewhere though. Maybe I included the word 'creation' in these questions and just didn't notice.

I think this point has been made before but let me try again.What if the conditions here were not "just right"? The answer is easy: we would not be here. The question doesn't mean very much since if we can ask it the conditions are "just right". There isn't any other possible answer.In addtion, we don't yet know enough to have any idea of whether there is any other possibility. It could be that the universe didn't have any other way to be.Let's see if a Theory of Everything tells us about what can happen and what must happen. I hope to live long enough to see some real results in that area.

Fair enough, I knew you are a creationist. I just wanted you to understand my viewpoint!You say:
"I also do not think you can get order from some sort of big bang, which I think would make a big mess. Did any bomb you have heard of create order.lol"Err excuse me ? How could you not get order from big bang ?
Order at what scale ? Lets add one law to our universe and see what happes after a big bang mess, shall we ?
Lets add gravity!
What happens is that matter starts to attract matter, forming bigger and bigger lumps. Finally you'll get things of star-size!
Lots of stars are drawn together building galaxies.
Is that order ?
Whats so hard about that?
lol.(Whatever physical laws you choose for your universe, you will wind up with different levels of order at different scales)

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technocore: Life is something that can replicate and has a form of awareness (the abillity feel its surroundings at some level). To do so it needs energy. There are a multitude of ways to concieve something that replicates and is not made from carbon.

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/*DNAunion*/ There are a multitude of ways to conceive of all kinds of things, many of which are completely silly (people once conceived of bat people living on the moon). Being able to conceive something does not make it reality, or even plausible.Now why don't you actually support your position - instead of simply stating it - by showing us a system (other than biological life as we know it) that would classify as life, and that arose by undirected, non-biological processes alone?[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 11-01-2003]