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Author Topic:   Laws of Conservation?
Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 67 of 86 (501005)
03-03-2009 6:35 PM


Time
I see a lot of certainty in people's views that time began with the universe - but what is the evidence for that? Don't say GR because it breaks down at singularities.

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 03-03-2009 6:49 PM Richard Townsend has replied
 Message 69 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 7:34 PM Richard Townsend has replied

  
Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 70 of 86 (501132)
03-04-2009 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by onifre
03-03-2009 6:49 PM


Re: Time
Sure, but first can you tell me what is meant by "GR breaks down at the singularity"...? In your own words, please.
Also, can you show me a time when there was no universe...?
Yes - as I understand it, singularities are events where, according to classical physics, the energy density and hence spacetime curvature become infinite. GR doesn't work in these circumstances. The expectation is that quantum gravity will help us resolve this.
Can I show you a time when there was no universe? No, but I see the following logical possibilities.
- The universe may have begun without time, which emerged 'subsequently'.
- Time may have come into existence before the big bang, in some kind of precursor to our universe.
These are a bit mischievous - but my point really is that we don't understand how time arises and therefore it's not a foregone conclusion that it began with the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 03-03-2009 6:49 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 4:52 PM Richard Townsend has replied
 Message 77 by cavediver, posted 03-04-2009 7:38 PM Richard Townsend has not replied

  
Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 71 of 86 (501134)
03-04-2009 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by cavediver
03-03-2009 7:34 PM


Re: Time
So does the polar coordinate system of latitude and longitude - does that mean that North and South have meaning off the planet? Do lines of longitude meet at the North Pole and rather than simply terminating, they then slink off into the polar skies? I'm sorry but I just cannot get my head around what you are suggesting - some concept of time without a "universe"? I think you may have the cart before the horse
.
That's a good challenge - and I think it's probable that time did arise with the universe - but I'm wary of using logic to say that such a thing is necessarily the case. Something would have to exist for time to exist, but it might not be the universe as we mean it today. Likewise it is possible that time was not an initial property of the universe but appeared at some point.
Oh, and the singularities are the results of the fields equations and some (not-as-reasonable as we once thought) energy conditions - they have nothing to do with the space-time concept itself, which came to prominence with SR and Minkowski.
yes, I agree

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 Message 69 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 7:34 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 73 of 86 (501149)
03-04-2009 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by onifre
03-04-2009 4:52 PM


Re: Time
Oni
Yes, it's very hard to talk about things happening without time - so any statement of that kind looks nonsensical. But I'd like to challenge you on saying time, length and width do not arise - I think they do. The number of dimensions of the universe is a property that it has - that theoretically could be different from what we observe. The concept of length can only arise from the existence of a such a space dimension. I think time is a similar concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 4:52 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 6:56 PM Richard Townsend has not replied

  
Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 74 of 86 (501153)
03-04-2009 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by onifre
03-04-2009 4:52 PM


Re: Time
BTW, I was being a smartypants when I used the word event - an event is the name for a point in space time. I may have misused it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 4:52 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 7:04 PM Richard Townsend has not replied

  
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