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Author Topic:   Laws of Conservation?
onifre
Member (Idle past 1409 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 31 of 86 (500316)
02-24-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
02-24-2009 4:50 PM


help
Hmmm, not really Whatever you read about virtual particles has a good chance of simply being wrong - scientists will often make up any old crap if it helps "explain" a hard concept - believe me

Agreed. Just my undergrad take on what is clearly outside the scope of my current knowledge.

However, I've just been trying to bump that point. Notice in one of my previous posts I used the word appears; it appears to break the laws of consevation. I was hoping someone would jump on that and clear it up better for me.

So, how 'bout a quick explanation of what happens to the energy in particle/anti particle annihilation. Which will surely require more of an explanation. If you don't want to bother, cool.

scientists will often make up any old crap if it helps "explain" a hard concept - believe me

Yes, I read your previous post to Black, "magic"...? lol ;)


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 32 of 86 (500319)
02-24-2009 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by onifre
02-24-2009 4:18 PM


Re: Lost?
Straggler writes:

If by "lost" you mean dissappears altogether then yes that would break the law of the conservation of energy.

Which is what happens to virtual particles.

It is my understanding that rather than a loss virtual particles popping into existence imply a temporary gain.

It is also my understanding that virtual particles fully adhere to conservation laws because they exist for times less than the Planck time.

However I am talking off the top of my head and, like you, I have probably exceeded the limits of knowing what I am talking about so I could be talking out of my virtual arse and be temporarily violating the conservation of nonsense.

Maybe Cavediver can explain? Or I suppose we could try and look some stuff up for ourselves.


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Black
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 33 of 86 (500338)
02-24-2009 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by cavediver
02-24-2009 4:46 PM


Cavediver,

What if a isolated system exploded? Would that scenario break the law of conservation of energy?

Edited by Black, : edit


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2102 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 34 of 86 (500339)
02-24-2009 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by onifre
02-24-2009 5:13 PM


Re: help
If you don't want to bother, cool.

Oh, believe me, I ALWAYS want to bother - in just about every thread here at EvC - it's just time is so limited when you run your own company. It's nearly 1am so I'll get back to this after some much needed sleep :)


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2102 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 35 of 86 (500341)
02-24-2009 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Black
02-24-2009 7:38 PM


What if a isolated system exploded?

I'm sorry, I don't know what that means. Any conventional explosion simply widely distributes the energy content of a volume. For all the talk of a nuclear explosion causing a loss in mass, if you summed up all the constituent elements of the explosion, never mind how far flung, no mass nor energy would be lost.


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Black
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 36 of 86 (500346)
02-24-2009 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by cavediver
02-24-2009 7:52 PM


cavediver,

So, effectively, every isolated system is a isolated subsystem? what are the theories related to that phenomena? seems like a creator is required to be able to have a system of such in existence.


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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3174 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 37 of 86 (500347)
02-24-2009 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Black
02-24-2009 9:57 PM


You've Got a Zinger Coming, Don't You
So, effectively, every isolated system is a isolated subsystem?

No. To be a subsystem it would necessarily have a relationship to another system. I'd think it goes without saying that two systems communicating their existence to each the other are not isolated from each other.

[S]eems like a creator is required to be able to have a system of such in existence.

In what way does it seem so? Are you saying imaginary constructs must have a creator? An ultimate imagineer? I'd be prone to agree.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 1409 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 38 of 86 (500358)
02-25-2009 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Black
02-24-2009 9:57 PM


Black writes:

So, effectively, every isolated system is a isolated subsystem?

Universe = isolated system

Everything else within it = not an isolated system

Here's an easy to understand wiki definition: Isolated system

quote:
In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality (except for the universe as a whole), because, for example, there is always gravity between a system with mass and masses elsewhere.


However, if you really want to get deeper into it, try this link: Isolated System/Berkely University

Black writes:

seems like a creator is required to be able to have a system of such in existence.

Sure, but who created the creator?


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


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grant111
Junior Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 02-14-2009


Message 39 of 86 (500362)
02-25-2009 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by onifre
02-25-2009 2:07 AM


onifre writes:

Sure, but who created the creator?

A creator can't be created. That would defeat the whole concept. Anyway...


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Black
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 40 of 86 (500363)
02-25-2009 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by onifre
02-25-2009 2:07 AM


Universe = isolated system

is the space outside of the universe a system?


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 41 of 86 (500364)
02-25-2009 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Black
02-25-2009 2:32 AM


is the space outside of the universe a system?

What makes you think there is any space outside of the universe?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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Black
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 42 of 86 (500366)
02-25-2009 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Modulous
02-25-2009 2:39 AM


inflation

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 02-25-2009 3:21 AM Black has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3915
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 43 of 86 (500371)
02-25-2009 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Black
02-25-2009 2:48 AM


How about some real content in your messages?
It's very nice that you have a word and that you spelled it correctly. Now how about a period at the end of the word, to make it a sentence?

Actually, how about more words, strung together to form larger sentences?

Then you can group those sentences into paragraphs. Next thing you know, you'll have a full message that actually says something.

NO REPLIES TO THIS MESSAGE, UNLESS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A 24 HOUR SUSPENSION.

Just try to bring your message quality level up.

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

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It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


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Black
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 44 of 86 (500372)
02-25-2009 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Adminnemooseus
02-25-2009 3:11 AM


Re: How about some real content in your messages?
sorry it is just that your post was pointless and rude and also as such hypocrtical in the sense that I wasted a post but so did you.

Edited by Black, : edit


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 45 of 86 (500373)
02-25-2009 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Black
02-25-2009 2:48 AM


inflation

Enjoy your suspension, incidentally.

However inflation is about the inflation of space itself. Why does this make one confident that there is space outside the universe? Are you saying that space is inflating into space? That doesn't seem to make sense.

If you (or anyone else) actually want to discuss this particular issue, maybe you could do so at What is the universe expanding into? or maybe expanding universe or a whole new topic perhaps.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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