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Author Topic:   Do we need a new paradigm for the origin of the universe
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5542 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 16 of 50 (494372)
01-15-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by letchim
01-15-2009 1:46 PM


You cannot understand natures nature without integrating it into your nature...
What do you mean?
Can someone help me where did I say I had a God...putting words in people mouth to justify an arguement reminds me of straw men
Are you asking me? I didn't say anything about any gods. But if you want my opinion, I would say that your unusual spelling "G-d" may have something to do with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 1:46 PM letchim has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 50 (494373)
01-15-2009 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by letchim
01-15-2009 1:46 PM


quote:
You cannot understand natures nature without integrating it into your nature
Nature's nature doesn't give a shit about your nature. Nature's nature will carry on quite well regardless of human nature. Consequently, our understanding of nature's nature really has bugger all to do with human nature.
quote:
you may not give a damn about Jung, I don't give a damn about the arrogant Dawkins, but it would be folly to ingore him?
As far as discussing the origin of the universe, the only rational approach to Jung is to completely ignore him, since nothing he ever said, read, wrote, or thought has anything to do with cosmology; and that would be true regardless of whether anything he said about psychology is now considered bunk.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 1:46 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 2:53 PM subbie has replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 18 of 50 (494376)
01-15-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by subbie
01-15-2009 2:03 PM


quote:
nature doesn't give a shit about your nature. Nature's nature will carry on quite well regardless of human nature
Evidence that without an observe please...one that uses its cognition to interpretate the results...in fact I challenge eveyone on this point
No Jung doesnt say anything about cosmology but he says a lot about you and the way you think and relate to the nature you claim is independent of you cognition.
And yes fally' its larni I was talking about puting G-d concepts on the line - sorry
quote:
the only rational approach to Jung is to completely ignore him
So that past has no relevance to our present or future, Plato said to ignore the present is denial, to ignore that past is the path of the fool.
G-d is used this way to respect other peoples faith!
Enlightenment is to let go of arrogance...to be honest this feels like a fundy Christian forum, did not reaise that peoples faith/religion in science was so strong
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.

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 Message 17 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 2:03 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 19 of 50 (494379)
01-15-2009 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by letchim
01-15-2009 2:53 PM


quote:
Evidence that without an observe please...one that uses its cognition to interpretate the results
Interesting phraseology.
As far as I'm able to suss your meaning, you seem to be suggesting that our observation of nature is necessarily clouded by how we perceive nature. Presumably, from that premise, you would then go on to infer that, if we aren't perceiving it accurately, the conclusions we come to on the basis of our perceptions aren't reliable.
To that, I would counter that if our conclusions weren't reliable, they wouldn't work. The fact that they do is evidence against your proposition.
quote:
So that past has no relevance to our present or future, Plato said to ignore the present is denial, to ignore that past is the path of the fool.
Well, wasn't Plato a clever fellow. Does that mean that we're fools if we try to understand cosmology unless we take into account the Bobsey Twins? After all, they are in the past. Ignoring the past that has nothing to do with the subject at hand is not only not folly, it's necessary.
quote:
Enlightenment is to let go of arrogance...to be honest this feels like a fundy Christian form, did not reaise that peoples faith/religion in science was so strong
Except faith is believing in the absence of evidence. Given the success of science, we have ample evidence for believing that it's a productive and accurate method for learning about the world around us.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 2:53 PM letchim has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2720 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 20 of 50 (494380)
01-15-2009 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by letchim
01-15-2009 1:46 PM


Hi, Letchim.
I have to admit that I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to comprehend what you're writing.
letchim writes:
...how can science even attempt to investigate something with no material component...
How can you be sure that there is no material component to the origin of the universe? I personally don't think you've presented a good argument for this. Surely the fact that the result (the universe) is material is a good indication that there is a material component to the origin of the universe.
Do you agree that, if there were a material component of the origin of the universe, science would be capable of investigating it?
If so, do you also agree that science would be able to tell what the material component of the origin of the universe actually is?
And, if so, do you also agree that science would be able to tell where its ability to explain the origin of the universe ends?
Edited by Mantis, : Rewording

I'm Bluejay.
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 1:46 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
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letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 21 of 50 (494390)
01-15-2009 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Blue Jay
01-15-2009 3:15 PM


subbie
quote:
that our observation of nature is necessarily clouded by how we perceive nature
No they are not necessarily clouded; they are necessary definitive to how we perceive nature, and on that basis they will be reliable on the definitive.
quote:
to understand cosmology unless we take into account the Bobsey Twins
No to take into account Copernicus and Newton..the past encourages the present based on their innovation, that pushed forward cosmology
quote:
Except faith believes in the absence of evidence.
Given the success of science, we have ample evidence for believing that it's a productive and accurate method for learning about the world around us.
No faith is; confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Evidence- as I said earlier, Proof - (dictionary) the evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
All of this evidence is produced by minds, non material in nature, but based in materialist evidence, a series of neuron interactions, but capable of non material beliefs, a belief in a multiverse without physical evidence.
quote:
Do you agree that, if there were a material component of the origin of the universe, science would be capable of investigating it?
If so, do you also agree that science would be able to tell what the material component of the origin of the universe actually is?
Yes I agree, but science does not as yet give an explanation of the origin of the universe, only a description of its evolution after it began, similar to evolution, no abiogenesis theory is forthcoming, at this stage.
It’s like the cure for cancer 40 years ago, it will come soon so where is it, it is similar to the Christian second coming that never arrived ....it is a belief of hope for the future until it is fufilled
quote:
How can you be sure that there is no material component to the origin of the universe?
If we are at base nothing but matter (or a bundle of "natural" causes, posited by the believe "naturalism"), then we cannot freely will to do anything - but our everyday experience utterly contradicts this. So either I freely deny that I am nothing but matter and I'm right, OR I have no choice in the matter, un-freely deny that I am nothing but matter, but couldn't have chosen otherwise

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 Message 20 by Blue Jay, posted 01-15-2009 3:15 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 5:54 PM letchim has replied
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 01-15-2009 7:35 PM letchim has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 22 of 50 (494395)
01-15-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by letchim
01-15-2009 5:33 PM


quote:
No they are not necessarily clouded; they are necessary definitive to how we perceive nature, and on that basis they will be reliable on the definitive.
Meaningless word salad.
quote:
No to take into account Copernicus and Newton..the past encourages the present based on their innovation, that pushed forward cosmology
Actually, there is very little that either Copernicus or Newton had to say that's still relevant. But of course, I was talking about you bringing Jung into the picture, for reasons that completely elude me.
quote:
No faith is; confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
So, to you, faith makes no distinction between whether there is a basis for belief? Curious. In any event, we believe in science because we have ample reason to. If you wish to criticize those who believe evidence and the logical conclusions that flow from that evidence, that's certainly your right. It might be nice if you'd explain why such belief should be subject to criticism.
quote:
All of this evidence is produced by minds, non material in nature, but based in materialist evidence, a series of neuron interactions, but capable of non material beliefs, a belief in a multiverse without physical evidence.
More meaningless word salad. Evidence is what we perceive through our senses. It is reliable because different people looking at the same evidence see the same thing. This is so regardless of quibbles about the nature of reality, disagreements about mind/soul duality, or whatever else you want to say about it.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 5:33 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 6:03 PM subbie has replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 23 of 50 (494398)
01-15-2009 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by subbie
01-15-2009 5:54 PM


Word salad- what does this mean- i dont understand its seem to me there is no coheret arguement here...ffs I am 16 get ur act together, read a bit more and argue up front rather than beinging a strawman/woman... I have edited this as I feel I am abusive towards above comments, but I still feel your if u read more, ur arguements might be bit more informed rather than relective of ur personality
quote:
Evidence is what we perceive through our senses.
Oh yes I saw the quantuim machanic relationship of the neucleus to the electron the other day as I was going into the subway (sic)
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 5:54 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 6:04 PM letchim has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 24 of 50 (494399)
01-15-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by letchim
01-15-2009 6:03 PM


Word salad means that what you have written is nonsense, devoid of meaning. See also, null content.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 6:03 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 6:24 PM subbie has replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 25 of 50 (494400)
01-15-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by subbie
01-15-2009 6:04 PM


quote:
Word salad means that what you have written is nonsense, devoid
of meaning
Read broader than what u have been, "word salad " means ur a bit behind things to me
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.

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 Message 24 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 6:04 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 01-15-2009 6:40 PM letchim has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 26 of 50 (494402)
01-15-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by letchim
01-15-2009 6:24 PM


quote:
Read broader than what u have been, "word salad " means ur a bit behind things to me
Uh, no.
I'm not "behind" anyone who can't be bothered to type out the whole word "you" and "you're." Believe me, the problem is not my comprehension skills, it's your writing skills, or lack thereof.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 6:24 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 6:54 PM subbie has not replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 27 of 50 (494404)
01-15-2009 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by subbie
01-15-2009 6:40 PM


Your (ur)right please forgive my poor typing, as much as I forgive your apparent lack of reading and associated understanding Ur entitled to your own opinion despite if it lacks a eclectic basis ie ur means your
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.
Edited by letchim, : No reason given.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 50 (494409)
01-15-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by letchim
01-15-2009 5:33 PM


Philosophical groundwork pt2
If we are at base nothing but matter (or a bundle of "natural" causes, posited by the believe "naturalism"), then we cannot freely will to do anything - but our everyday experience utterly contradicts this.
Our everyday experience does no such thing - it merely supports the hypothesis that we believe we have free will, not that we actually have it. An example of this kind of thing in action is the fact that our peripheral vision is not in colour. This assertion is utterly contradicted by our everyday experience because it really does seem like our peripheral vision is in colour - there is no part of our visual experience that is monochromatic (assuming normal function).
That said, we really shouldn't be arguing for or against Cartesian dualism and about philosophy of mind in a thread about the origins of the universe.
Let us assume that the origin of the universe is not physical so that physicalism is an inadequate position and we need to subscribe to some kind of dualism. The issue then becomes: Does this new realm have rules? How do we discover those rules? How does this realm interact with our own? How can we tell that this other realm exists? Do the principles of cause and effect operate there? If not, how can we possibly investigate it in any fashion?
For thousands of years people have postulated some other realm from whence this one has come - which seems to indicate that something in that realm caused this one to come into existence which would indicate cause and effect applies at least in part.
If so, surely we just need some method to access this realm and then we can perform experiments and make observations and basically try and uncover the rules of the new realm (or perhaps I should say the Preuniverse Realm). Maybe the existence of this preuniverse realm has left some evidence behind that we can hunt for, maybe not.
That is to say, we might simply extend the scientific method to the new realm. We'd have a whole new problem to work towards: Where did the preuniverse realm come from?
If the scientific method does not apply, then we need to explain how we can come know anything about this realm, how we can be sure it actually exists and so on and so forth. To do this we'd need to develop some concepts about the kind of realm under discussion and work from there to see what we'd expect to see result...
The first thing we have to do is maintain the three primary truths:
  1. The Fact of Our Existence {As per Descartes}
  2. The law of Non-Contradiction {Courtesy of Aristotle and many others}
  3. The capability of the mind to know truth
If we throw any of these things out - then investigating this realm is not going to be possible.
OK. So what next? Well we've decided on our metaphysics (dualism) so we have to decide our epistemology. How are we going to deduce that we have obtained knowledge about this realm?
Authority - Some people claim to be an authority in this other realm. We can ask them about it. Unfortunately there does seem to be a lot of contradictory statements made by professed experts so this leaves us with having to temporarily ignore this one (maybe later we can know who to trust, and who to ignore). In science there is some reliance on Authority (citing work done by others etc) we deal with the problem using peer review (having exams and qualifications and lots of people continuously checking that the work adheres to certain pre-agreed rules etc).
Coherence - Maybe we will decide that any set of true statements in this world must consistent or coherent with one another. We might even say that given two hypotheses about this realm, the one that is most coherent is more likely to be true. This is something we do in science for example.
Correspondence - does our belief about this realm, correspond with what is actually the case when we examine it. If we believe that gravity is as the result of a factory of pusher elves that exists in this realm, does such a factory exist? If we ignore correspondence investigation is surely going to be tricky. Science has developed quite an extensive and evolving collection of methodologies for exploring how well evidence corresponds with our ideas about the physical realm so we might use some or all of those.
Pragmatics - we might decide that any ideas about this realm which can be put to observable use might indicate that those ideas are true. To tie the philosophy of mind into things a little more tightly, perhaps some idea about this realm can be used to explain the decision making process of certain species of animals much more usefully or reliably than our present ideas about decision making. Likewise, if proposing this realm leads to understanding the details of the origins of the universe and thus how the fundamental forces of nature operate, it might open up new avenues of understanding in intergalactic travel, energy, and so on.
These are the big ones that science relies on as criterion from sorting out true propositions in our realm from false ones. They don't guarantee success, but they have lead to us ridding the world of small pox and developing the internet so we can't complain, eh?
Now - you propose a new paradigm is needed. Obviously you propose that a new metaphysical paradigm might be proposed (though dualism is an old paradigm, we'll ignore that). However do you want a new epistemological paradigm - or are you happy with the kind of paradigm I describe above? Do you instead want a methodological paradigm shift?
Finally, what other criteria do you think might be worth avenues of exploration for epistemology? Your argument that since we believe that we have free will, we must therefore have free will would seem to indicate the following might be of interest:
  • Naive realism aka common sense realism (given your location perhaps you might like to look into the Scottish School of Common Sense)
  • Intuition (the notion that if it feels true, it is true)
  • Revelation (the notion that someone from the other realm periodically beams knowledge into our brains OR our minds that exist in this other realm periodically learn some information about it)
  • Tradition - if it has been part of the culture or society for a long enough time, it contains truth, or is true.
  • Popularity/Majority/Universal consensus - if lots or the majority or all people believe it is true, it is true.
Do you think any of those concepts should be included in this new paradigm of learning?
Summary
You need to decide on your metaphysics. Do you think that dualism would be in a better position than monism or physicalism to deal with the problems you believe exist?
Then you need to sort out some kind of epistemology, or at least decide what criteria will be used to discriminate between true and false statements (and indeed you'll need to decide what should happen when we can make no definite statement either way) when it comes to investigating the origins of the universe. Should we subscribe to ideas such as fallibilism (that any given proposition in the fashion of {x is true} might actually be incorrect) or infallibilism {once the epistemological model has determined x is true, x will always be considered true} and well, let us just say that there is a lot of groundwork to get done if we're going to start a revolution - a lot of it might have already been done but we're still going to have to sort through it and select what we want as well as possibly justifying why we have selected those and rejected those others and we may even need to do some original philosophy of our own.
This kind of philosophical groundwork is an essential step before you can begin your investigations into something as difficult as the origin of the universe. Once you've done that you then need to develop a methodology that might not be aligned with your philosophy, but is necessary for the purposes of investigation. For example, you might conclude that Dualism isn't the way forward but that pluralism was true - however for the purposes of investigating the origin of the universe you might decided to be methodologically dualist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by letchim, posted 01-15-2009 5:33 PM letchim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by letchim, posted 01-17-2009 5:13 AM Modulous has not replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 29 of 50 (494603)
01-17-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
01-15-2009 7:35 PM


Re: Philosophical groundwork pt2
What a fantasic answer....I will neeed some time to think about this, there is so much there a real challenge

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 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 01-15-2009 7:35 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by letchim, posted 01-17-2009 6:41 AM letchim has not replied

  
letchim
Junior Member (Idle past 5570 days)
Posts: 19
From: Scotland
Joined: 01-15-2009


Message 30 of 50 (494608)
01-17-2009 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by letchim
01-17-2009 5:13 AM


Re: Philosophical groundwork pt2
Ok I am struggling with the issue raised here, but as a way of progressing, it would be helpful if people could make some comments on the following 2 points
1. It seems to me that ultimately, all scientific inquiry into the origins of the universe, regardless of how advanced or how primitive that society’s scientific methods might be, reaches a final terminus point of regression through which it cannot rationally pass.
2.Scientists have concluded from the Big Bang theory that there is an indeterminate singularity out of which the universe is manifested. They arrive at this conclusion by abstracting or thinking away all determinate qualities of the manifest universe. What they are left with is a pure mathematical abstraction they call a singularity. Therefore, what is actually arrived at by such abstract thinking can only be an abstract thought, and that is exactly what a singularity is. Thus the origin of the universe, although some would like us to believe it is merely a physical or material point, is in reality only an abstract thought. But this implies that abstract thinking must pre-exist the origin of the universe if we insist the origin is simply a singularity, which can only be an abstract thought.
This is not word salad its a genuine enquiry

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