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Author Topic:   The problems of big bang theory. What are they?
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 389 (430111)
10-23-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 11:16 AM


Re: The bitter simple question
We will start this point by point, if I miss any I, or someone else with come back and fill in...
TyberiusMax writes:
Matter is what EVERYTHING is made out of...
Patently incorrect. ANTI-MATTER also exists, anti-matter also composes part of EVERYTHING. Everything that follows is pointless, but I will continue.
TyberiusMax writes:
This means matter must already be SOMEWHERE for SOMETHING to happen
This means even before ANY CREATION THEORY(Big bang, Evolution)...there must have been matter in order for something else to be created or happen
Lets examine virtual particles for the sake of this discussion.
The uncertainty principle implies that particles can come into existence for short periods of time even when there is not enough energy to create them. In effect, they are created from uncertainties in energy. One could say that they briefly "borrow" the energy required for their creation, and then, a short time later, they pay the "debt" back and disappear again. Since these particles do not have a permanent existence, they are called virtual particles. (Morris, 1990, 24)
These virtual particle didn't always exist in some place. They are produced.
TyberiusMax writes:
The first "Anything(atom,quark,matter)" came out of nothing, therefore, matter can not only be made, but also can be made out of nothing.
The problem with this is, there is no 'first particle' instead there was likely the first pair of particles. One of matter and the other of antimatter. Which then likely recombined and annihilated each other. This idea doesn't require any sum total energy or matter being created from nothing since they are opposites in charge, spin, properties (generally). Their sum total canceling out to zero.
TyberiusMax writes:
1)Here we have matter, we know matter and its properties, we know it's laws
Yet we say...
The first "Anything(atom,quark,matter)" came out of nothing, therefore, matter can not only be made, but also can be made out of nothing.
2)He we have a God a "Matter Creator", we don't know Gods properties, we don't know his laws
And we say...
There is a Being or Something who is outside all boundaries of LAWS and NATURE and TIME, and created all we know and do not know.
This is a false dichotomy and a poor one at that, added to that is the straw man over simplification of big bang theory. Also god is conveniently placed "outside all boundaries of LAWS and NATURE and TIME". (whatever that is supposed to mean)
The false dichotomy stems from the idea that there can only be two options to choose from and you get to choose which two options we get to choose from, then you choose an option that misrepresents the scientific consensus on the big bang as one of the two options. Do you see the problem yet?

"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 11:16 AM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 12:49 PM EighteenDelta has replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 389 (430127)
10-23-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 12:49 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
You didn't bother to read did you?
You should try learning this subject by reading rather than having the members of this board spend their time teaching you things you will never allow yourself to believe.
Leaving out antimatter isn't a small thing as you seem to imply, that only demonstrates further the point that you are disbelieving things you haven't made the effort to understand.
Lets start here
Where did all the matter and radiation in the universe come from in the first place? Recent intriguing theoretical research by physicists such as Steven Weinberg of Harvard and Ya. B. Zel'dovich in Moscow suggest that the universe began as a perfect vacuum and that all the particles of the material world were created from the expansion of space...
Think about the universe immediately after the Big Bang. Space is violently expanding with explosive vigor. Yet, as we have seen, all space is seething with virtual pairs of particles and antiparticles. Normally, a particle and anti-particle have no trouble getting back together in a time interval...short enough so that the conservation of mass is satisfied under the uncertainty principle. During the Big Bang, however, space was expanding so fast that particles were rapidly pulled away from their corresponding antiparticles. Deprived of the opportunity to recombine, these virtual particles had to become real particles in the real world. Where did the energy come from to achieve this materialization?
Recall that the Big Bang was like the center of a black hole. A vast supply of gravitational energy was therefore associated with the intense gravity of this cosmic singularity. This resource provided ample energy to completely fill the universe with all conceivable kinds of particles and antiparticles. Thus, immediately after the Planck time, the universe was flooded with particles and antiparticles created by the violent expansion of space. (Kaufmann, 1985, 529-532)
First thing, notice it says like a black hole, that doesn't mean = to a blackhole. Experiments have been conducted to create pairs of particle/anti-particles. This isn't just limited to the big bang.
-x

"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 12:49 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 1:34 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 389 (430128)
10-23-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 12:49 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Since you keep adding things after I have started my response I then have to respond multiple times.
it is a LAW: something cannot come from "pure nothing"
(please tell me you believe this)
Show me this law, in its entirety. You are over simplifying things again.
The only logical reasoning is that something is outside of existence(Matter,Anti-Matter, Laws,Time,Everything) and created existance. Anything else goes against logic
Only your version of 'logic'.
You are stuck on your conclusion and simply playing a shell game to try and reach the same conclusion, regardless of how many times you are shown that your basic assumptions are incorrect. The sure sign of a locked mind, unwilling to bend to the evidence, and a waste of time for those of us posting in response.
P.S. Can I recommend that since you are in all likelihood using internet explorer(from the state of your posts), you try FireFox web Browser, it would make your posts more comprehensible since it includes a spell check option. Its not perfect as my posts will show, but it will vastly improve them.
-x

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 12:49 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 389 (430137)
10-23-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 1:42 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
I have already told you that something can in fact come from 'pure nothing'. And I have already told you that there is no such thing as 'pure nothing' in the realm of physics. You simply aren't paying attention.
In modern physics, there is no such thing as "nothing." Even in a perfect vacuum, pairs of virtual particles are constantly being created and destroyed. The existence of these particles is no mathematical fiction. Though they cannot be directly observed, the effects they create are quite real. The assumption that they exist leads to predictions that have been confirmed by experiment to a high degree of accuracy. (Morris, 1990, 25)
We know they are there because they affect the physical world we inhabit. But you will continue to ignore this...
-x

"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 1:42 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 2:01 PM EighteenDelta has replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 389 (430144)
10-23-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 2:01 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
You need to decide what you are and aren't saying. if you want to talk about 'before the universe' then you are saying there was a 'pure nothingness'.
Particles do have beginnings. I have not claimed otherwise. Particles/Matter/Anti-matter originated(had a beginning) with the big bang, which is a singularity extending through all space at a single instant. I do not, in the remotest sense believe in a creator with no beginning, nor in a creator with a beginning, I don't believe in any creator entities/creatures/beings.
-x

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 2:01 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 2:29 PM EighteenDelta has replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 389 (430149)
10-23-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 2:29 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Since (matter,antimatter, virtual particles, particles, energy)caused the Big Bang this would prove something was before the Big Bang, otherwise there would be nothing to bring it about
No. virtual particles aren't a thing of the past. Do you think god is the one still making them to this day? Because you do realize this is a part of everyday physics? Why do you see the need of a god to create something that still pops into and out of existence to this day? The difference is that the matter of the universe and the gravitational conditions existent today do not provide for a new big bang.
And nothing 'brings it about'.
-x

"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 2:29 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 2:56 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 389 (430158)
10-23-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 3:13 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
But you also believe the big bang required a cause(particles,anti-matter,matter,virtual particals). this means something already existed in order for the big bang to happen.
no, Chiroptera didn't say that, I did.
And no the universe doesn't require a cause. Its simply a leap on your part, supported by nothing more than your misunderstanding of the topic. This does not mean something already existed, why should it mean that? because you have declared it?
-x

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:13 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:30 PM EighteenDelta has replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 389 (430168)
10-23-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 3:30 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
You refuse to pay attention.
Virtual particles do not require a cause, they aren't part of the existence you are trying to fabricate and redefine here.
Just because you word a statement to claim that something "cannot come before they are created", doesn't make it any more true.
You keep ignoring that all your premises to get to this point have been shown false, you never bothered to change your conclusion though.
The Big Bang happened from what energy source?
This is as ignorant as asking "what energy powers gravity" since no energy is required to 'power gravity' yet gravity was shown to you as the 'power source' for the original big bang separating the virtual particle into their respective particles and antiparticles. And these virtual particles require no cause, no energy, and create a sum total of zero energy and matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:30 PM TyberiusMax has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:51 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 389 (430170)
10-23-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 3:43 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Big Bang, t = 0
To talk about negative time is as meaningfull as talking about negative water.
There is no t = -1
That's the most simple way to put what you don't seem to understand.
-x

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:43 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 389 (430281)
10-24-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Dr Jack
10-24-2007 8:44 AM


Re: The bitter simple question
I think the idea is that at t

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Dr Jack, posted 10-24-2007 8:44 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 10-24-2007 10:28 AM EighteenDelta has not replied
 Message 79 by Dr Jack, posted 10-24-2007 10:31 AM EighteenDelta has not replied

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