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Author Topic:   The problems of big bang theory. What are they?
TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 43 of 389 (430088)
10-23-2007 11:16 AM


The bitter simple question
This is not to prove a God exists, because how can you when Belief in a God requires faith, and faith is not science
Neither does it confuse with a circular argument.
This does not argue with biblical ideas or intelligent design but with a simple question of a very simple SCIENTIFIC PROBLEM with "No Creator Creation."
The question is based on the raw existence of the universe, and how is it possible that we exist
The simple question is...
In a Universe where there is no God and no one believes in a God which created all, how did raw existence come about?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LAW OF MATTER:
Matter exists physically and exists as energy
Matter is what EVERYTHING is made out of...
Matter cannot be created nor destroyed...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This means matter or energy must already be existent for SOMETHING to happen since the happening cannot be matter or energy becoming existent from “Nothing”
This means even before ANY CREATION THEORY (Big bang ‘Evolution)...there must have been matter or energy in order for something else to be created or happen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infinite Universe:
The universe therefore cannot be infinitely old because that would mean that matter or energy has been here forever
But where did that matter or energy come from, since it cannot be created.
Did it just appear out of nothing!?!?
Yet we know "pure nothing" cannot exist, there is always matter or energy, and that if there is matter or energy where did this matter or energy come from?
Also:
I quote Professor Paul Davies
"One evasive tactic is to claim that the universe didn't have a beginning, and that it has existed for all eternity. Unfortunately, there are many scientific reasons why this obvious idea is unsound. For starters, given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen will already have happened, for if a physical process is likely to occur with a certain nonzero probability-however small-then given an infinite amount of time the process must occur, with probability one. By now, the universe should have reached some sort of final state in which all possible physical processes have run their course. Furthermore, you don't explain the existence of the universe by asserting that it has always existed. That is rather like saying that nobody wrote the Bible: it was. It was just copied from earlier versions."
So infinity does not work.
Finite Universe:
Others say everything that is now, is from the big bang, and the universe does have a beginning
But then how did the Big Bang, Bang?
The Big bang could not happen without something there (hydrogen or particles or plainly ENERGY). Therefore, if that matter or energy is there to create the Bang; something is existing before the Big Bang.
Even a virtual particle must have energy in order for it to "happen". We therefore are confronted with the question of how this energy came about.
Yet, again, since new matter or energy cannot be made made let alone be made from NOTHING, how is this possible
Quantum Physics:
After all that is said one could be convinced that maybe existence did come about spontaneously
Quantum Physics particles of matter can actually appear from simply nothing:
The problem is these appearances are happening in existence. It has nothing to do with "pure nothing." We can only operate in existence
Here in lies the problem
We are in existence. "Thanks for telling us that Einstein"
Quantum physics and events that we see occur are obviously happening, in existence. "OK"
So that means,
The spontaneity of particles that we see appear out of nothing cannot be called actual "pure nothing", because the particles are appearing in an already existent world
How can we say that particles can spontaneously appear out of actual "pure nothing" if in reality we are seeing our supposed "spontaneity" in existence?
We cannot. We are bound by existence and therefore it can never be known what created existence since everything we know and don't know, even Quantum Physics, is bound by existence.
This all boils down to the fact that:
It may sound ludicrous, but it is totally sound that you cannot use anything from existence in order to explain how existence came to be. This is because of the simple fact that anything in existence was made when existence came to be and therefore could not be the tool used to create its own maker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is impossible to escape the fact of (cause ----> effect)
Otherwise it would be (nothing ------> effect)
But once again as stated, nothing cannot make an effect.
People then ignorantly argue back to the beginning and start the question all over again
What about (Big Bang -----> effect)
This is a preposterous answer for the question because all statements above go against this saying the Big Bang cannot happen from nothing because "nothing" cannot exist and therefore the Big Bang would have a cause"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This leads to two conclusions neither being possible (In our minds):
There is no actual answer, yet, to how the universe "happened."
That would mean a person still has a choice and is free to get down to the simple answer of existence:
"I believe the universe is either finite or infinite. The universe simply exists."
The universe simply exists. It is not finite or infinite.‘(Illogical since it must be one of them because we are here) This belief comes short. We have already learned how an infinite universe is impossible, and to believe in one would require faith.
So therefore the only other answer would be finite, but that leads us back to the beginning of the argument, if the universe is finite. Then what created it?
Or
"I believe in a God outside of existence who created me."
(Something we cannot conceive but some believe with faith.
Faith is not scientific. It is simply believing without seeing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Either one can be an answer true?
Just as you can't yet explain how the universe simply exists, you cannot prove there is no God because you cannot yet prove there is a God.
At present moment both believe there idea to be true. It’s the same as before an experiment.
Two people have a hypothesis as to what the answer will be. There WILL be only one answer and it might not be what either thought, but as of now our experiment is not done yet and the two hypotheses stand.
=====================================================================
By saying
I have faith in the flying spaghetti monster. He created the entire universe last Thursday, with the appearance of age including all of you memories, beginning with a midget on a hill.
You can't argue with it because it can't be proven or disproven.
You are using my second possibility, you are saying there is a God, in the form of a spagetti monster.
I cannot argue with it, there is no way to
Why, because it is your BELIEF
In the same way I cannot explain my God and his existence, most christians do say this. They believe his actual existence is beyond our abilities to understand.
They also believe their God is personal, and loves them.
THIS IS A FAITH THOUGH (WHY AM I NOT ADDING NEW STUFF TO THIS, BECAUSE YOU STILL FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT FAITH IS)
Faith is believing without seeing
it cannot be prov3en or disproven
I cannot explain how the universe came to be
This leads right back to what I must repeat.
Since,as of yet, science cannot explain existence,
The explaination "The universe just simply exists" cannot be a logical answer either. Because that doesn't explain anything. it is truly a "belief"
"This is the science section of the forum."
Faith is not science
That is why there is no arguing it.
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.
Edited by TyberiusMax, : Spelling Error
Edited by TyberiusMax, : never been good at spelling
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 12:43 PM TyberiusMax has replied
 Message 49 by Dr Jack, posted 10-23-2007 1:38 PM TyberiusMax has replied
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2007 1:52 PM TyberiusMax has not replied
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2007 9:14 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 45 of 389 (430114)
10-23-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 12:43 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Yes, I left out anti-matter, ok
But you ignore the simple truth...
it is a LAW: something cannot come from "pure nothing"
(please tell me you believe this)
Going all the way back to the beginning of time, space, and everything. what happened to make something out of nothing.
The smallest you could say is that there were two particles of anti-matter and matter.
but then you ignore the simplicity again, how were those made.
not even a quark(or smaller!) could be made with out something making it.
It cannot be said that something was there to begin it all. It is impossible. Because anything that is there is existence and therefore had to be made at sometime.
The only logical reasoning is that something is outside of existence(Matter,Anti-Matter, Laws,Time,Everything) and created existance. Anything else goes against logic
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 12:43 PM EighteenDelta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 1:24 PM TyberiusMax has replied
 Message 47 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 1:32 PM TyberiusMax has not replied
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2007 1:59 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 48 of 389 (430129)
10-23-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 1:24 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Ok, so your telling me that anit-matter, matter, particles, and virtual particles made all we had from the enrgy of the big bang.
SO what.
You go right from particles just appearing to the big bang giving them energy.
How does a particle appear out of nowhere. It can't it is impossible there is truly "ZERO ENERGY/ZERO EXISTENCE" before existence.
Everything you say requires energy to be present but that had to come from somewhere.
Did it come from virtual particles and particles.
Even if, How were they then made.
you cannot use anything that exists ( matter,particles) to explain how they came to exist since they were required to began existence.
It is illogical to say this therefore the only logical answer is that "Something" outside of existence created existence.
How is your logic not the same?
Your goal is to prove that existence came to be from objects that were made by existence. Your mind-set is that somehow, objects from existence already existed and then created existence. But that just plain doesn't make sense does it?
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 1:24 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 50 of 389 (430132)
10-23-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dr Jack
10-23-2007 1:38 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
So jack, are you telling me that even though our universe tells us that something cannot come out of "pure nothing", maybe somehow, for some reason, the universe actually was at one time created out of nothing?
Edited by TyberiusMax, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dr Jack, posted 10-23-2007 1:38 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 10-23-2007 1:48 PM TyberiusMax has not replied
 Message 52 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 1:49 PM TyberiusMax has replied
 Message 73 by Dr Jack, posted 10-24-2007 5:12 AM TyberiusMax has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 55 of 389 (430140)
10-23-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 1:49 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Im not saying there is "pure nothing", I'm just saying that
Even if existence(Universe,anything else that possibly exists) goes back for eternity, you are then saying that there was no begining of particles, matter.
You are then doing the same thing as peoplewho believe in a creator who has no beginning.
You ask creationist "who made god then"?
We ask you "who made the (particles, matter) then"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 1:49 PM EighteenDelta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 2:14 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 57 of 389 (430147)
10-23-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 2:14 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
So you believe in a finite existence in which there was a beginning to everything. You believe this was the Big Bang
This brings us back to point one... how did the (matter,antimatter, virtual particles, particles, energy) that caused the Big Bang come about.
Since (matter,antimatter, virtual particles, particles, energy)caused the Big Bang this would prove something was before the Big Bang, otherwise there would be nothing to bring it about
Edited by TyberiusMax, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 2:14 PM EighteenDelta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 2:40 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 59 of 389 (430150)
10-23-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 2:40 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
you tell me there is no such thing as nothing
Tell me then, what was before the Big Bang
Would you say "nothing"?
But there is no such thing as "pure nothing", something is always present.
Therefore we must question. Where did this something come from?
I'm not saying that you must believe in God. But tell me, why can't people believe in a God outside of existence when you believe something came out of nothing.
They both, at present, sound illogical
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 2:40 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Chiroptera, posted 10-23-2007 3:02 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 61 of 389 (430156)
10-23-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Chiroptera
10-23-2007 3:02 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
I'm not referring to time, the english language has it's limits you know. Do not ignore the core of the argument though.
You are saying the big bang was the beginning of existsense(time)!
But you also believe the big bang required a cause(particles,anti-matter,matter,virtual particals). this means something already existed in order for the big bang to happen.
Hence Endless Loop with no answer
Do Until nothing = existence
nothing <> existence
Loop
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Chiroptera, posted 10-23-2007 3:02 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 3:22 PM TyberiusMax has replied
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2007 3:29 PM TyberiusMax has not replied
 Message 65 by Chiroptera, posted 10-23-2007 3:38 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 64 of 389 (430162)
10-23-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 3:22 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
Then tell me in a sraight answer
The Big Bang happened from what energy source?
Remember - ( particles, matter, anti-matter, virtual particles) cannot do this this because they are part of the existence created
As in (They cannot come before they are created)
Also remember "Nothing" does not exist
Do Until nothing = existence
nothing cannot create existence therefore nothing <> existence
existence = Something outside of existence
Loop
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 3:22 PM EighteenDelta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 3:45 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 66 of 389 (430166)
10-23-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Chiroptera
10-23-2007 3:38 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
So Chiroptera, you believe you universe has been here indefinetly?
How can the universe have a beginning if there is no cause
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Chiroptera, posted 10-23-2007 3:38 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 3:50 PM TyberiusMax has not replied
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TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 69 of 389 (430171)
10-23-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by EighteenDelta
10-23-2007 3:45 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
I'm not talking about time. We know time is part of the universe
But you fail to understand that ENERGY itself is part of existence,
how could any form of ENERGY create "the the existense it is created in"
Edited by TyberiusMax, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by EighteenDelta, posted 10-23-2007 3:45 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

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 Message 70 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:55 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 70 of 389 (430172)
10-23-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by TyberiusMax
10-23-2007 3:51 PM


Re: The bitter simple question
I must retire. Thank you for taking your time to discuss this with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by TyberiusMax, posted 10-23-2007 3:51 PM TyberiusMax has not replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 80 of 389 (430322)
10-24-2007 4:10 PM


Quantum Physics
After all arguments of how existence came to be. There has come an answer for how the Big Bang, Banged for scientists.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUANTUM PHYSICS
Mostly, quantum events occur at the atomic level; we don't experience them in daily life. On the scale of atoms and molecules, the usual commonsense rules of cause and effect are suspended. The rule of law is replaced by a sort of anarchy or chaos, and things happen spontaneously-for no particular reason. Particles of matter may simply pop into existence without warning, and then equally abruptly disappear again. Or a particle in one place may suddenly materialize in another place, or reverse its direction of motion. Again, these are real effects occurring on an atomic scale, and they can be demonstrated experimentally
Ex.
A typical quantum process is the decay of a radioactive nucleus. If you ask why a given nucleus decayed at one particular moment rather than some other, there is no answer. The event "just happened" at that moment, that's all. You cannot predict these occurrences. All you can do is give the probability-there is a fifty-fifty chance that a given nucleus will decay in, say, one hour. This uncertainty is not simply a result of our ignorance of all the little forces and influences that try to make the nucleus decay; it is inherent in nature itself, a basic part of quantum reality.
End Ex.
The lesson of quantum physics is this: Something that "just happens" need not actually violate the laws of physics. The abrupt and uncaused appearance of something can occur within the scope of scientific law, once quantum laws have been taken into account. Nature apparently has the capacity for genuine spontaneity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After all that is said one is convinced that maybe existence did come about spontaneously
Here in lies the problem
We are in existence. "Thanks for telling us that Einstein"
Quantum physics and events that we see occur are obviously happening, in existence. "OK"
So that means,
The spontaneity of particles that we see appear out of nothing cannot be called actual "pure nothing", because the particles are appearing in an already existent world.
How can we say that particles can spontaneously appear out of actual "pure nothing" if in reality we are seeing our supposed "spontaneity" in existence?
We cannot. We are bound by existence and therefore it can never be known what created existence since everything we know and don't know, even Quantum Physics, is bound by existence.
Edited by TyberiusMax, : spelling

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Chiroptera, posted 10-24-2007 4:17 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 82 of 389 (430324)
10-24-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Chiroptera
10-24-2007 4:17 PM


Re: Quantum Physics
So, you believe in a infinite universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Chiroptera, posted 10-24-2007 4:17 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Chiroptera, posted 10-24-2007 4:26 PM TyberiusMax has replied

TyberiusMax
Member (Idle past 6251 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-23-2007


Message 84 of 389 (430326)
10-24-2007 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Chiroptera
10-24-2007 4:26 PM


Re: Quantum Physics
What do you mean then by saying the universe "Simply exists"
By saying this, you are implying it had no beginning, am i right?
No beginning means infinite?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Chiroptera, posted 10-24-2007 4:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Chiroptera, posted 10-24-2007 4:41 PM TyberiusMax has replied

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