Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 413 of 948 (797566)
01-23-2017 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by creation
01-23-2017 9:43 PM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
I observe that time exists here in our spacetime
No, I don't think you do. The same reasons you give for not accepting time far away apply right here in front of your nose or as you say "our spacetime".
So far, all you are doing is saying uhuh. Give us an observation that indicates that time has a different characteristics at stellar or cosmic distances than it has within our solar system or we can dismiss what you say as pure silliness.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by creation, posted 01-23-2017 9:43 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by creation, posted 01-24-2017 8:44 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 427 of 948 (797588)
01-24-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by creation
01-24-2017 8:44 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
Yes, I do know that. I also have every reason to expect spacetime to exist and behave in predictable ways in the visible Universe. So far, you have provided no evidence that my expectations are incorrect.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by creation, posted 01-24-2017 8:44 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by creation, posted 01-24-2017 12:50 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 743 of 948 (840698)
10-03-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 742 by creation
10-03-2018 2:08 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
quote:
Actually I've talked about space-time, and once again you're engaging in gross misrepresentation. The evidence I've posted was about what the light arriving from objects millions and billions of light years away tells us.
You were wrong. It would only tell us things if time and space were the same at all points. Distances to stars (via parallax for example) cannot be attained unless the space and time used in the base line here were the same all the way to the star That is NOT known. Most of what you think the light tells us is all based on a false premise.
You saying something doesn't make it true.
You have not presented anything but ignorant bluster, meanwhile we can extract all sorts of useful knowledge from the light we see. The emission and absorption lines in the spectrum of light from distant stars shows us the same elements that we see in light emitted right here.
Now, you can rant about that but we will just laugh at you and go on learning new things about the near and far Universe with all our wonderful instruments.
You are powerless to change that because no one is going to pay any attention.
quote:
Again, we have to talk about space-time. The shape of space-time is not the same everywhere. It is bent by the gravity associated with mass, and by the relative velocities of coordinate systems. Observations are consistent with theory.
Wrong. We do not know how big or far away anything is out there beyond the fishbowl. So what gravity exited there is unknown. What bends light is not known. Just because something bends light here in our time and space does not mean that is the only thing that does in the universe.
Oh, well that was clear.
The observations we have here are IN our time, so how could they not be consistent with theories based on time here?
Even if you were correct, what difference does it make to you if scientists are making observations here and sharing them with whoever is interested? I step outside at night and look up and see the stars or I receive images from the Hubble Telescope on my computer and your ranting doesn't make a bit of difference to my enjoyment of the beauty and new knowledge.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by creation, posted 10-03-2018 2:08 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by creation, posted 10-03-2018 12:25 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 745 of 948 (840714)
10-03-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by creation
10-03-2018 12:25 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Looking at some lights in the sky that are of unknown origin and distance and size and in unknown time and space is not knowledge.
You are correct, you would not be able to learn anything.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by creation, posted 10-03-2018 12:25 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by creation, posted 10-03-2018 10:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 748 of 948 (840759)
10-04-2018 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by creation
10-03-2018 10:47 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
That is where science is.
Wow, that's deep, Man.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by creation, posted 10-03-2018 10:47 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by creation, posted 10-04-2018 3:49 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 761 of 948 (841139)
10-08-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 757 by creation
10-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Mentioning fables is not vehemently supporting them. The basis for them was shown, and you must deal with it or lose.
Well, on this debate forum, losing would be the one who makes up imaginary limitations on history or the visible Universe with no independent supporting evidence. Losing in your case is not being able to convince a single person that you know anything.
What I find interesting is that you seem to think that you will convince anyone that what we observe from our vantage point on Earth is not what we observe.
Our telescopes collect and record light from the distant Universe and we see differences between distant objects and we can compare them with nearby objects and no one has noticed limitations of the sort you are asserting.
In science, the goal is to try and collect as much evidence about the Universe and how it works as possible and to describe it in a way that all fits together. In the process we always observe features that cannot be explained initially based on existing evidence. Those are the things that scientists love, that's what they live for. That is what they will spend a lifetime researching, trying to understand. In the process they make all sorts of other discoveries even if they have not found out what is going on with the initial mystery.
They make their observations, experiments, and interpretations here on earth and if the reality is different in the distant past or in the distant Universe it does not change the fact that telescopes still collect light and that we can dig up ancient human artifacts and fossils of long dead organisms and see traces left behind by geological processes and ancient life.
There is no evidence of your different natures or fishbowl and until scientists notice their affects on observations they will not be taken into account. There are factors that limit what scientists can observe and they are well known, but the limitations you are arguing for here were thrown on heap of failed ideas long ago. Trying to link them to your religious beliefs ensures that no one will take you seriously.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:50 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 765 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:29 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 768 of 948 (841194)
10-09-2018 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 765 by creation
10-09-2018 12:29 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
What you see here in the fishbowl is what you see. It is real...here.
Ok, we agree that we see things from here.
And some of us keep records of what we see.
And some of us notice that some of the things we see look similar or the same and some other things look different. And some of us keep records of what we see.
And some of us start comparing the things we see and start figuring out ways to measure the comparisons. And some of us keep records of what we see.
And some of us start making lists of the things we see, and lists of the comparisons, and lists of the measurements. And some of us keep records of what we are doing.
And some of us start trying to explain what is going on with the things we see, and how they are related, and what they are made of, and thousands of other parameters. And some of us keep records of what we are doing.
And some of us start writing about what we have figured out AND what we are speculating about it. And some of us start sending letters and communicating with other people who are interested and we start having meetings and form societies based specialized interests and start publishing journals.
And some of us decide that it might help all of us have a clearer understanding of the observations that we are reporting if we define some standardized measurement practices and reporting methods.
It turns out that all that organizing and standardizing and clarifying language was started 300 years ago by the first systematic scientists and a lot of the kinks have been worked out of the system since then. It is a modern human achievement so it still has flaws, but the goal is as accurate a description as possible of our observations from the earth and recently a few points off the Earth.
You wrote: What you see here in the fishbowl is what you see. It is real...here.
That doesn't change the methodology of the way we make our observations or report them. Millions of observations have been compared to experimental results here and when we observe a similarity we study it further. So, for a long time people have been poring over the data and now using high speed computers also, and a couple of the things in the observations do not seem like they fit together, and they have been highly publicized. Those puzzles are fascinating, but I don't think they are the fishbowl affect you are talking about.
If time were not the same that would wreak bloody havok on your models though. Of course.
Wow, bloody havoc, huh?
Do you know what a model is? Models are not reality, they tell us about reality. That's all, that's it.
If reality changes or turns out to be different then it seems bloody obvious that we change or replace the model so it accurately tells us about reality.
You act like something is going to explode if our model needs to be tweaked. Are you daft?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:29 AM creation has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 771 of 948 (841197)
10-09-2018 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
The bible makes more sense if your old age models and stellar evolution stuff is wrong.
The bible doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't have any connection with "old age models and stellar evolution stuff."
Since you cannot prove what time is like in the far universe you are defeated.
You're going to have to up your game.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 788 of 948 (841410)
10-12-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by ringo
10-12-2018 11:37 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Unless there is evidence that it is there, we have no reason to think it's there - like Santa Claus.
We know there is not a shred of evidence for "other natures" or any "fishbowl" but there is a mountain of evidence that Santa Claus is a real historical figure. Photos, movies, books, magazines, Santa is so infused in modern culture that millennia from now he may be the most recognized person in history.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 11:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 12:56 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(4)
Message 851 of 948 (842455)
10-31-2018 5:33 PM


Astronomers just keep doing astronomy
Timelapse shows twenty-five years in the life of one the most studied objects in astronomy: Supernova 1987a
quote:
Yvette Cendes, a graduate student with the University of Toronto and the Leiden Observatory, has created a time-lapse showing the aftermath of the supernova over a 25-year period, from 1992 to 2017. The images show the shockwave expanding outward and slamming into debris that ringed the original star before its demise.
In an accompanying paper, published in the Astrophysical Journal on October 31st, Cendes and her colleagues add to the evidence that the expanding remnant is shapednot like a ring like those of Saturn'sbut like a donut, a form known as a torus.
They also confirm that the shockwave has now picked up some one thousand kilometres per second in speed. The acceleration has occurred because the expanding torus has punched through the ring of debris.
and
Astronomers observe the magnetic field of the remains of supernova 1987A
quote:
For the first time, astronomers have directly observed the magnetism in one of astronomy's most studied objects: the remains of Supernova 1987A (SN 1987A), a dying star that appeared in our skies over thirty years ago.
In addition to being an impressive observational achievement, the detection provides insight into the early stages of the evolution of supernova remnants and the cosmic magnetism within them.
"The magnetism we've detected is around 50,000 times weaker than a fridge magnet," says Prof. Bryan Gaensler. "And we've been able to measure this from a distance of around 1.6 million trillion kilometres."
"This is the earliest possible detection of the magnetic field formed after the explosion of a massive star," says Dr. Giovanna Zanardo.
The thrill of discovery continues for astronomers and astronomy students just as if there is no boundary around our solar system distorting what they and their instruments see.
What is really cool about this is they keep inventing new methods of observation and they are recording and reporting everything to all of us.
It is interesting that hypotheses continue to be proposed and tested as if we are aware of any factors that distort our perceptions and account for them whenever we discover them.
If creation is correct about his imaginary woowoo, it really doesn't matter because scientists are obviously continuing on, having a blast, discovering things, without even noticing his fantasies.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 855 of 948 (842475)
11-01-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by creation
11-01-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Astronomers just keep doing astronomy
25 years....fishbowl time! Ha.
Meanwhile science continues on just as if you and your fantasies are fictional. Ha indeed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:47 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 6:02 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 856 of 948 (842477)
11-01-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by creation
11-01-2018 2:46 PM


Re: Confusing
Creation is confirmed through all the bible actually. Calling it pagan is punk talk.
Fiction.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:46 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 6:00 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 863 of 948 (842555)
11-02-2018 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by creation
11-02-2018 6:02 PM


Re: Astronomers just keep doing astronomy
They will blunder on as long as they can get away with it. Making stuff up, lying, deceiving, and being deceived. No news there.
Ah, more fiction. You cannot possibly know, since you only read fiction, barely.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 6:02 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by creation, posted 11-03-2018 2:32 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 865 of 948 (842603)
11-03-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by creation
11-03-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Astronomers just keep doing astronomy
I use prophesy from Scripture rather than random so called science cranks on a forum, thanks.
So, basically fiction. Do you know what "so called" means?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by creation, posted 11-03-2018 2:32 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by creation, posted 11-04-2018 12:14 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 867 of 948 (842641)
11-04-2018 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 866 by creation
11-04-2018 12:14 PM


Re: Astronomers just keep doing astronomy
creation writes:
I use prophesy from Scripture rather than random so called science cranks on a forum, thanks.
So, basically fiction. Do you know what "so called" means?
Yes. So called science is a con job where something is falsely called science. A 'so called science' crank would be someone advocating for that con.
Whew, I thought you were talking about so-called cranks. So are the cranks random or the so-called science?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by creation, posted 11-04-2018 12:14 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:32 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024