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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 368 of 948 (781731)
04-07-2016 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by starlite
04-05-2016 9:20 AM


You confirm you do not understand how the measure is taken and what it is comprised of. If any other poster wants to know we can discuss that. You have shown yourself to be boringly closed minded.
Amazing. What Jon has described is exactly how the measurement was done. The method that you describe, which uses parallax based on the size of the earth's orbit is essentially useless for measuring distances to objects beyond about 400 light years away. SN1987a is more than 400 times as far away as that.
Why don't you consult one of the many sources that describes the astrophysics involved? Here is a link to one such description:
Page Not Found | Department of Chemistry
quote:
After the progenitor star Sk-69 202 exploded, astronomers measured the time it took for the energy to travel from the star to the primary ring that is around the star. From this, we can determined the actual radius of the ring from the star. Second, we already knew the angular size of the ring against the sky (as measured through telescopes, and measured most precisely with the Hubble Space Telescope).

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by starlite, posted 04-05-2016 9:20 AM starlite has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 400 of 948 (797551)
01-23-2017 7:56 PM


Does time pass in other star systems.
Supernova 1987A provides evidence that time passes at the same rate as it does in our solar system. For example, the decay of Co 60 formed during the supernova has been observed to have the same half-life as measured on earth.
In addition, the rate of light travel in the vicinity of SN 1987 has also been confirmed to be the same as the rate of travel here using basic trigonometry.
So there is some evidence for the proposition that time does pass similarly to the rate at which it passes here. There is also the idea that conservation of energy is a confirmation that time passes the same at various location, although the argument is not one I am going to go through here.
The question, since you are claiming to have an "observation" is what evidence suggest the contrary idea that you seem to propose. If your philosophy relies in some way on time not existing in other places, I expect that you might provide us with some evidence or reason to believe so.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by creation, posted 01-23-2017 9:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 409 of 948 (797562)
01-23-2017 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by creation
01-23-2017 9:43 PM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
ince the decay is seen here, it makes sense it is the same as expected here.
You have missed the point entirely. The decay that is being seen happens there. If there is no time at the point where the Cobalt 60 exists, then there is no decay. The fact that a process occurs, or that any change occurs at a given distant point means that time occurs at that point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by creation, posted 01-23-2017 9:43 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by creation, posted 01-23-2017 10:30 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 414 of 948 (797567)
01-23-2017 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by creation
01-23-2017 10:30 PM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
Whatever we see is here! The light that has the info is only and always seen here.
What we see is light emitted from a process that occurred there. If the light was emitted, then a process occurred there. And what we see is that the process occurred there exactly as it would here.
Again, what is your evidence that there is no time in distant star systems, which include systems in which we have evidence that one body orbits another, something which requires that time exists there?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by creation, posted 01-23-2017 10:30 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by creation, posted 01-24-2017 8:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 444 of 948 (797625)
01-24-2017 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by creation
01-24-2017 8:45 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
The process occurs there, the time that process takes to unfold only and always happenes here, and only here. Of course.
Your claim would be that the Co 60 that formed and decayed during the supernova did so without time existing at its location? That makes no sense to anyone but you. It is in fact only our observations of processes and not the processes themselves that rely on local time.
Let me correct another of your misconceptions. None of the generally used methods for calculating the distance to stars rely on actually timing light traveling to stars and accordingly none of those methods is "geochronically" based.
Cosmic distance ladder - Wikipedia
In short, the distances to the closest stars are measured using parallax which is purely geometric and also useful to about 1000 light years. Only the existence of the object at a distant point is assumed. These measurements correlate with the distances measured for stars at greater distances thereby calibrating them.
So when we observe that distant stars behave exactly as does the sun, for example, and we then use that to obtain a distance that correlates with a purely geometric method, we establish that time is the same for us, the stars at parallax compatible distances, and at larger distance that correlate directly with those measurements.
Of course, that chain of events is not absolute proof, but it is better grounded in fact than your need-based claim that there is no time outside of the solar system. Yeah, I get that you don't want stars to exist that are further away than 6000 or so light years, but that the facts do not support what you wish was true.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by creation, posted 01-24-2017 8:45 AM creation has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 485 of 948 (797678)
01-25-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by creation
01-25-2017 9:59 AM


Re: Young earth?
The parallax measure used a base line from here in our time/spacetime/space.
Yes, parallax does use a 'base line' [sic] located here. That simply means that you should have no problem with the use of the baseline. So what is your objection to parallax methods given that they do not rely on the passage of time at a distant point?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by creation, posted 01-25-2017 9:59 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by creation, posted 01-25-2017 3:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 503 of 948 (797697)
01-25-2017 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by creation
01-25-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Young earth?
When performing triangulation, the passage of time at the distant point is not relevant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by creation, posted 01-25-2017 3:37 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by creation, posted 01-25-2017 11:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 526 of 948 (797725)
01-26-2017 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by creation
01-25-2017 11:02 PM


Re: Young earth?
Not the passage of time there...but the existence of time HERE in spacetime...for the base line.
You've already acknowledged that the passage and existence of time here is just fine. Accordingly, there is no question whatsoever about the baseline. What has been put to you is the fact that the passage and existence of time remote at the remote distance is not required for triangulation. In fact, if the distant stars cannot move because of the lack of time at the distance, then triangulation becomes more firmly established. The two angles and the baseline are all measured at our end, where time is established.
Further, the consistency of such measures with our observations of processes at a distance is confirming that time passes at similar rates as it passes here.
Your inability to provide coherent arguments implies that this time thing is simply a mantra to repeat in support of pure denial. It is nothing more. And your ability to maintain your position by simply not answer questions when challenged is not the same as actually winning an argument.
As much as I like to argue with crackpot physics, your approach of not providing responses is no longer all that entertaining. You are welcome to the last word.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by creation, posted 01-25-2017 11:02 PM creation has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 556 of 948 (797816)
01-27-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by RAZD
01-26-2017 9:26 AM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
You are talking about the baseline for parallax measurements from two extremes of earth's orbit perpendicular to the object being measured.
I was about to apologize for misunderstanding, and then I read the clarifying post. He really was talking about the two extremes of the earth's orbit. By the way, there is no need for that baseline to be perpendicular. Generally speaking that is not the case.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 9:26 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2017 2:58 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 699 of 948 (827325)
01-22-2018 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Percy
01-22-2018 6:25 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Most certainly it tells us how much time is involved. f = c / λ, where f is cycles/second and c is meters/second. Most certainly time is a critical component.
I think the more important argument is that it implies that the same processes (the ones that are responsible for the light emission in the first place) are occurring at the same rate. In short by verifying that sun-like stars have spectra that look like our own sun, we have evidence that physics, including the passage of time, is the same as it is here even at places that are monstrous distances away.
The absorptions and emissions that make the spectra look different from a pure blackbody spectrum, are things that we know actually took place at the place where the light was emitted, and are governed by exactly the same physics as we use here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Percy, posted 01-22-2018 6:25 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:57 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 711 of 948 (827516)
01-26-2018 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by creation
01-26-2018 9:57 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Too bad none of that tells us anything abut time there. Since we NEED time to exist to know distances and sizes, seeing hydrogen or something doesn't help since we do not know how far away it is.
My explanation tells why our observations do tell us about how time progresses in remote locations. Instead of addressing a single point that I made, what you do here is repeat your denial.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:57 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:35 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 721 of 948 (827544)
01-27-2018 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by creation
01-27-2018 1:35 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
NoNukes writes:
My explanation tells why our observations do tell us about how time progresses in remote locations. Instead of addressing a single point that I made, what you do here is repeat your denial.
creation writes:
NoNukes ...
The only place you see anything progress is here. Face it. Light we see here is here. No matter where it is from it is seen here, and unfolds in time here. No denying it.
So still no response, only a quote with no words from my message and a repeated denial.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:35 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by creation, posted 01-28-2018 4:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 736 of 948 (827671)
01-29-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by creation
01-28-2018 4:15 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
False. Nothing you post needs denying. You didn't even deal with the issue of time far far away.
Actually, I did. But you are such a 'hear no evil' blooming idiot that you ignore the point. I will summarize it here.
Even if we acknowledge that we cannot view the passing of time remotely, we can observe the effects of that time passing remotely. So when we observe that the stars and the elements formed by stars have exactly the same properties there that they do here, we are actually comparing processes here and there. Those processes do involve time. When we observe spectrum lines here, the absorptions or emissions that formed those lines actually occurred remotely. When we observe wobbles in stars that reveal their orbital motions, the wobbles occur remotely and not here. Yet they are observed to obey Kepler's laws (or Einstein's equations when the objects are massive enough) When we observe SN 1987, we can see that the timing we observe of events (like the illumination of objects in the viciinity) that occur remotely are consistent with what we should expect if those events occurred here. When we observe stars at distances from 4.3 light years to thousands of light years away, some distances of which we can observe by parallax, we can see that physics is the same here as there. I'll also add that with the exception of some of the observations of SN 1987a, none of our estimates of distance involve the use of timing light travel, so they are not subject to the BS that you claim we know nothing about.
Taken altogether those kinds of facts are not proof, because nothing is provable in science, but they are strong evidence that the universe acts the way we believe it does and not the way you wish it did. For your wishes that reality does not work as we expect, there are zero supporting facts or evidence. It is your belief alone and your requirement for a tiny, young universe that makes you invent excuses.
As for observing you, What we can see is that you've launched onto an evidence denying mantra that you repeat endlessly. Your debating technique is nothing different from shouting while holding our fingers in your ears.
You cite authority but don't discuss it. You deny without delving into what others posts. That makes you amusing -- for maybe a post or two. But in the end, you are seen to be full of shite. If this kind of nonsense were required in order to be a Christian, then Christianity would be a religion of self-deception, and a snake eating its own tail. Fortunately for us Christians with our eyes open, such deceptions are not required.
You are welcome to have the last two or three words. That's all your dumb ass is capable of.
Edited by NoNukes, : Small tweaks. a little more info.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by creation, posted 01-28-2018 4:15 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by creation, posted 10-02-2018 1:59 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 741 by creation, posted 10-02-2018 10:25 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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