Something From Nothing?

To return to the topic of this thread...I scanned the messages leading to this point, but I could not find a direct challenge to the assumptions behind the statement "something from nothing". So, I will challenge the statement.Assumption#1: That there was nothing to begin with.
There is no more justification for making that claim than to claim the opposite: that something came from something, or maybe something from everything.Assumption#2: There is an absolute timeline of infinity before and after our universe, and at some point in time there was a creation of this universe.
I suspect that notion of "time", while it makes sense in our experience, is analogous to flat-earth thinking.Assumption#3: Cause and effect (the "came from" clause).
Maybe there was no cause. I have read the term "inevitable" when it comes to explaining our existence, but that seems to fall into the "chance" line of thinking, and assumption 2. Maybe all possibilities exist, but to chain them together for our experience only allows to see and experience a cause and effect stream. Here is a thought to ponder: How could other possibilities be prevented from existing?Of course, if all possibilities exist, then maybe one possibility is that God exists and created our situation. Or, maybe our situation is that God does not exist. I leave that to other discussion, although if you buy into the belief that many or infinite universes exist "in parallel" (really meaning non-intersecting), then the specialness of this universe is diminished.The point here is that it is sometimes difficult for some people to see the assumptions in their belief systems. Belief systems come from something, not nothing.

You stated:
"I translate "stuff" to be: 1) the origin of the universe and 2) the origin of life. "It is not a given that there was an origin. That is a belief."Something from nothing" may be no more true than saying the number "1" came from the number "0".

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- datsit4now

No. That's not what I was getting at.I was not addressing a scientific view, which of course, has limits of our observations, and may not be capable of answering the origin question, unless you artificially define "origin" as the start of something like a big bang. But, that still leaves the question of cause from a previous state of energy... or nothingness.Instead, I was addressing a philopsophical point that most Creationists never think about. In fact, most Creationists don't have the curiosity to dig deeper on such questions, because "the Bible says it and that settles it." Their faith provides more drive to study the Bible more to get closer to God (you can never study it enough) rather than spend their time studying science or philosophy. They are ignorant of science like secularists are ignorant of the Bible (as clearly demonstrated in some "Inerrancy" threads).I was trying to reinforce the notion that hidden assumptions are made about our universe. From a pure logic point of view, there could be an origin or not an origin. Conceivable scenarios can be speculated for either.Creationists base their beliefs stongly on the notion of uniqueness and specialness of the universe and our existence. Fundamental to the belief system is the notion of a creation and a corresponding explanation that gives purpose and meaning to our lives. In a search for an explanation, the only thing that makes sense to many people is the Bible ("God must have given us instruction").All the arguments with logic from scientific observations ultimately lead to a dead end at the door of faith. At the end of a discussion, a Creationist will always have the answer: "Well, I don't have an explanation for that, but God knows, and it must not be that important or God would have chosen to include that in the Bible." And, Creationists will turn the table on Evolution-believers that lead to a similar response: "Well, we don't have evidence yet on that issue (like the neverending missing links), but I believe that it will eventually be found."However, if people can stop and think about the assumptions at the foundation of their belief systems, we might get somewhere in our discussions. This thread is about "something from nothing" (a presumption). The discussion that ensues starts off on the wrong foot, in my opinion. It's like the question "When did you stop beating your wife?"

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- datsit4now