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Author Topic:   Question About the Universe
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 373 (695014)
04-01-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Stile
04-01-2013 9:13 AM


Re: Madly off in all directions
Light is only moving in one direction. Therefore, if the two rays/streams are parallel, there is no movement "toward" or "away" from each other.
Only in flat space... In non Euclidean space parallel lines may intesect (for example lines of longitude on the surface of a sphere). Or parallel lines may diverge in a space with a different curvature.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Stile, posted 04-01-2013 9:13 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 373 (695046)
04-02-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dogmafood
04-02-2013 6:54 AM


Re: Madly off in all directions
but I was wondering why distant objects do not appear much larger than they are if the light from them is spreading out in all directions.
The light that spreads out in directions that are not towards you never reaches your eye. So it cannot contribute to how large the object appears or how bright the object appears. What you see is only the light that travels in the direction along the line of sight between you and a star.
Now if the object were surrounded by a cloud of dust so that the light that as it spreads out can be reflected or re-radiated in your direction, then you can see a larger bright image resulting from the star.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Dogmafood, posted 04-02-2013 6:54 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 373 (695049)
04-02-2013 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Stile
04-02-2013 9:21 AM


Re: To see or not to see
100 million km in 10 days. If our line of sight is perpendicular to their separation, why do we not see that distance increasing? Or do we?
I know that a Mega parsec (Mpc) is very, very large... maybe 10.6 million km and 100 million km aren't all "that large" in comparison to 100Mpc.
Exactly. 100 Million parsecs is about 326 million light years, while 100 million km, is about 6 light minutes. (The earth/sun distance is about 150 million km).
In fact even without considering the expansion of space, stars do move relative to each other (proper motion). Over long periods of time, we do see the shapes of constellations change due to relative motion of the stars. The link below shows how the Big Dipper is expected to change over long periods of time.
Page not found | Department of Astronomy

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Stile, posted 04-02-2013 9:21 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 373 (695282)
04-04-2013 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dogmafood
04-04-2013 4:40 AM


Re: Madly off in all directions
If I imagine an equilateral triangle consisting of my eye and any two stars. As the universe expands will that triangle remain equilateral?
Probably not. Stars are not stationary relative to each other even once expansion of space is subtracted out. For example, the stars in the Andromeda galaxy are moving towards the Milky Way and earth, and we expect that the two galaxies will collide at some point.
I understand that what you are really mean to is whether the expansion of space is isotropic (uniform at all points and in all directions). I think there is some evidence that the acceleration of the expansion is at least slightly non-uniform.
Page not found
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dogmafood, posted 04-04-2013 4:40 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 04-08-2013 8:06 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 55 of 373 (695330)
04-04-2013 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Stile
04-04-2013 9:24 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
The forces holding the atoms of the desk together (electromagnetic? strong? weak? whatever, I don't know....)
Electromagnetic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Stile, posted 04-04-2013 9:24 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 373 (695642)
04-08-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Stile
04-08-2013 10:37 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
Prototypical writes:
I was under the impression that the increasing distance between galaxies is not the same as the increasing distance between me and a ball that I have thrown. Galaxies are not moving through space but rather new space is being created(?) or introduced between them.
Stile writes:
This is true. Those two things are certainly not the same
Doggonit. Why do you guys repeat this stuff? For at least the third time... with respect to galaxies, the answer is that both types of changes in separation are happening. Galaxies do move relative to each other in exactly the same sense that a ball moves relative to you. For example, the Andromeda galaxy is actually moving towards the Milky Way and the two galaxies will collide at some point.
There is also the effect of increasing separation due to the expansion of space. For distant galaxies this is the more dominant effect.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 04-08-2013 10:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Stile, posted 04-08-2013 12:46 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 64 by Dogmafood, posted 04-08-2013 3:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 373 (695664)
04-08-2013 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Stile
04-08-2013 12:46 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
I do not know if "the effect of the expansion of space" is considered "a force" or not. Can it be measured in Newtons? Because of that... I don't know if I can talk about it as "the force of the expansion of space."
I think the best way of looking at expansion is as the creation of more space in the separation between the galaxies. But it is a mistake to picture galaxies as somehow anchored in space and being carried along at some velocity with the expansion.
Or said another way, the increase in separation due to the expansion of space is not a movement through space, while the effects of gravity and other motion through space (and remember we don't need a force to justify motion, only acceleration motion) are a completely different phenomenon and is a movement through space.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Stile, posted 04-08-2013 12:46 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 373 (695666)
04-08-2013 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dr Adequate
04-08-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Madly off in all directions
NoNUkes will correct me if I'm wrong.
Sounds right to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-08-2013 12:50 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 373 (695671)
04-08-2013 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dogmafood
04-08-2013 3:39 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
I was trying to isolate the one type that I don't see everyday.
A reasonable thing to do. I'm sure I over-reacted. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between posts from someone trying to learn something and the hubris laden posts of the righteously ignorant. Your posts are clearly not of the latter group.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dogmafood, posted 04-08-2013 3:39 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 373 (696644)
04-17-2013 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dogmafood
04-17-2013 12:48 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
bizarre
Yes. Bizarre such that when you find a concept difficult to picture, that can be an indication that your near to grasping it if you haven't already. People who think that they can actually mentally picture three dimensional space expanding but not expanding into anything are mistaken.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dogmafood, posted 04-17-2013 12:48 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 373 (696867)
04-19-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
04-19-2013 4:42 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
if space is expanding, what is it expanding into? If it's making the space it's expanding into what from? And anyway, what does making space even mean??
No wonder people reach for the Goddit explanation.
It's worse than that. People who have already accepted that God did it merely by speaking find modern cosmology ridiculous. It's easier for them to believe that scientists are involved in some kind of brainwashing conspiracy that keeps them in jobs and grant money.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2013 4:42 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 373 (696941)
04-19-2013 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by apoptosis
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
My understanding (based on what I thought Cavediver had said, but obviously I misunderstood) was that space has inherent energy associated with it
This is my vague recollection as well, but a search for cavediver's posts did not turn up anything. Let's also remember that under relativity, energy is not easily defined.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by apoptosis, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM apoptosis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by apoptosis, posted 04-25-2013 6:34 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 373 (739581)
10-25-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Colbard
10-24-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Guessing about guesses
Perhaps there is a question worth a look (and stomping a mud hole into) after getting past Colbard's definition of theory.
After all, YECs know that the Earth's birthday is 4004 BC based on documents written thousands of years ago based on calculations performed in 1654.
By contrast the scientific estimates of the age of the earth have been all over the place, and the history of those estimates reveals making wrong assumptions about mundane processes such as heat transfer and cooling, the source of the sun's energy, and the salting and de-salting of the oceans and getting bad numbers all while doing state-of-the-art investigations.
How Old Is The Earth? - Universe Today

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Colbard, posted 10-24-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 373 (740020)
10-30-2014 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:03 PM


Re: Guessing about guesses
When I first studied evolution, I found out that the horse was older than the earth, courtesy Encyclopedia Britannica, which gave the age of both.
Unless you were looking at an extremely old version of Encyclopedia Britannica, I find your claim rather difficult to credit. At no point during your lifetime was there a scientific consensus that the age of the earth was less than a billion years old. If in fact a 20th century edition of the Britannica made such a claim, the claim was incorrect.
I have watched the progress of science fairly closely, and nearly every one of their conclusions, far less so in the medical fields, is wrong.
Sure, bro. Then why can you not recite that progress/history correctly, having watched it closely?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:03 PM Colbard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 373 (740081)
10-31-2014 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:27 AM


I am objecting to the opinion of those who say that if something goes well using Maths, then it must be fact.
While your objection has merit, it is incomplete. Mathematics is just a way of expressing a theory and its consequences. The math allows us to be absolutely sure about the consequences of a theory.
So with regard to theories about the universe, mathematical support is the bare minimum. There is simply no reason to accept your or anyone else's theory or speculation on black holes, the age of the universe or the age of the earth where such a theory or speculation does not include some way for others to check whether they are right.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:27 AM Colbard has not replied

  
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