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Author Topic:   What is "the fabric" of space-time?
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 246 of 327 (464689)
04-28-2008 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by john6zx
04-27-2008 4:28 PM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
The concept of space comes about from the idea that one perceives through something when looking out from our point of view.

Well before I make a comment on this I should also note that you prefix this with:

I say space is a consideration and nothing more. My basic definition of space is...

Well it's nice that you have your own view of space, but since this is a science thread on a debate forum I feel compelled to ask:

Why does light bend as it travels near objects in such a manner as to act in exactly the same way as if gravity had warped space? There seems to be very strong evidence that gravity influences the shape of space - but your conception of space seems to imply that it is constant and flat. The question, in simple terms then, is how do you account for the evidence that would indicate to the contrary of your position?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by john6zx, posted 04-27-2008 4:28 PM john6zx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by IamJoseph, posted 05-06-2008 4:32 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 252 by john6zx, posted 06-28-2008 1:16 AM Modulous has taken no action

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 249 of 327 (465391)
05-06-2008 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by IamJoseph
05-06-2008 4:32 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
Are you saying here, that light actually bends

Depends what you mean by 'actually'. I guess in 'actuality' spacetime is bent, and light is just following the bent path which gives the impression of the light wave being 'bent'.

or that the observer's position is changed owing to the space bed movements

The observer's position isn't changed. Some of the intervening space has been warped by gravity...at least according to relativity. I was asking if a better explanation could be offered that didn't include warping of spacetime due to gravity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by IamJoseph, posted 05-06-2008 4:32 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by IamJoseph, posted 05-06-2008 6:20 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 254 by john6zx, posted 06-28-2008 2:08 AM Modulous has taken no action

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 251 of 327 (465404)
05-06-2008 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by IamJoseph
05-06-2008 6:20 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
Your statement agrees that the subject is changed, whatever be the reason.

I don't think the subject aka the observer has changed at all, in any sense that matters for noticing that the gravity of the sun bends the light from distant stars. If by 'subject' you mean 'medium' then yes, mass seems to 'change' or warp it.

I speculated, there must be a pre-set status quo, else the to and fro actions which cause the waves would not occur.

I assume you refer to some kind of 'aether'? You should probably go back to Message 8 to begin reading the discussion as to how this fits in with modern physics.

A stream of water heads for the sea - but this is driven by terrain and impacting forces.

To be pedantic it is driven by gravity, but its exact path is determined by also by geographical considerations.

In space, to determine the force of gravity in its pristine form, one must eliminate all debris in space.

I'm not sure you are barking up the right tree here, and I don't think your experiment is technically possible. I'm not sure there is some kind of Platonic Gravity that we can track down. Do you need to determine the force gravity in a massless universe? In modern physics it kind of sounds like you just want to calculate the shape of a universe with no mass in it - it might be interesting, but what would this tell us about gravity or why light bends as it passes near objects of high mass (such as the sun).

IOW, would there be gravity in space without space bodies?

This could be a philosophical question. As a scientific question, I'm not sure what the answer would be - and I assume by 'space bodies' you refer to anything that has mass, including WIMPS, should the promising new discoveries be verified. I think the answer would be 'no' but that would only be on the assumption we were talking about bog-standard gravity which is a force that occurs for some reason between two masses. Do you have a better reason than the curvature of space proposed by Einstein? That was the original question I asked...


This message is a reply to:
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