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Author Topic:   What is "the fabric" of space-time?
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 53 of 327 (458241)
02-27-2008 10:03 PM


Duh! If the universe was infinite, it would not be 15 Billion years old.

One must place their preamble which universe they inhabit before debating it: an infinite or finite one?


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 247 of 327 (465388)
05-06-2008 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by john6zx
04-27-2008 4:17 PM


Re: Fabric of Space-Time
Ultimately, nothing can be physical. As energy [non-physical, or nearing it] gives mass [physical], it is also seen that behind matter lies particles, which are matter's smaller components, and behind it still, would be a force.

Now what is a force? Is it the assembly of base particles in a certain formation - or is there something which is non-physical here? Lets examine one force, such as gravity. In the beginning, Newton saw this force as being emitted by a mass, such as the sun, and he posited his equations on specific, definitive and constant equations which are embedded therein. Here, Newton gave a premise of the sun actually emitting its forcefields, like tentacles, keeping the planets in its vicinity and stablised.

But this was incorrect. The formulae were right, but its underlying reasoning incorrect. It was corrected by Einstein's Relativity equations, which showed that the force of gravity is nothing more than the springing and swaying motions created on a matrix bed of space, when an object is placed on it. He equated this to the ripples seen in a lake when a stone is thrown in, and a mattress which makes similar waves when a body is placed upon it. The bouncing movements are the force, its equations being based on the exertion factor between two masses in the same matrix. Basically, this is a reflex action, and is alligned with things finding their own levels.

To take this further, there must be an independent and precedent criteria within the universe, and of the forces representing impressions and counter responsa. This must be the case, because without the impressions and responsa from mass inputs - one must ask, what is the independent status quo before it was effected; what are the responsa and deflections returning or defelcting away - from? Here, we arrive at a situation where the forces themselves represent effects unto the independent status quo. It is akin to a glass of water half filled, as the starting point [status quo], and the levels go up and down when impacted upon, creating waves.

The waves become the force fields, and these in turn effect other areas [ripple effect], all being a process of an in-built trait to return to the status quo position and also become subject to outside influences impacting on it: this is a display of a returning to a pre-set position. Here, the play of returning and being deflected, is what becomes the measurements of the force of gravity. We find here, that the gravity would destroy all existence, but for the outside planets which create certain waves, which are forces, and this becomes the force of gravity. There is a dual and inter-reliant interaction occuring here. But behind all this there is no physicality, matter being the result of forces. The deeper factor here is, the status quo is precedent of the later gravitaional results, and the enigmatic factor is, it appears both were anticipatory for the universe and life. If we track down the making of a car, where do we stop: at the instruction manual, the attributes of the material used, the energy of the fuel, the person driving the car, or a thought?


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 248 of 327 (465390)
05-06-2008 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Modulous
04-28-2008 9:15 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
Are you saying here, that light actually bends, or that the observer's position is changed owing to the space bed movements - and thus he ses the light differently? We find that light, represented as an image of a rod, appears bent when emersed in water - is this an actuality, or the subjective impression?

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 250 of 327 (465392)
05-06-2008 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Modulous
05-06-2008 5:48 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
quote:
light is just following the bent path which gives the impression of the light wave being 'bent'.

or that the observer's position is changed owing to the space bed movements


Your statement agrees that the subject is changed, whatever be the reason. Light can be obstructed by an opaque material, but I have not encountered a bending of light.

quote:

The observer's position isn't changed. Some of the intervening space has been warped by gravity...at least according to relativity.


Same dif.

quote:

I was asking if a better explanation could be offered that didn't include warping of spacetime due to gravity.


I speculated, there must be a pre-set status quo, else the to and fro actions which cause the waves would not occur. To further this premise, one must consider where the force stands with no space dedris impacting, and indeed if even a force would exist in this case. Here, that all things seek their own level, does not answer this question, because this applies to a levelling of a higher and lower level.

A stream of water heads for the sea - but this is driven by terrain and impacting forces. In space, to determine the force of gravity in its pristine form, one must eliminate all debris in space. IOW, would there be gravity in space without space bodies? This says a force is the result of material, mass movements of components in space [matter thus precedes forces], and that these forces would not exist w/o those impacting physical bodies.

Further, to result in specific, repeatable and consistant equations, there would have to be a pre-set determination in place, one which takes into account the properties of matter - because the matter and the forces are not only inter-active, but by their equations appear intergrated and recipient to each other. I see this eventually alligning with complexites not being resultant by random actions.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 255 of 327 (473299)
06-28-2008 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by john6zx
06-28-2008 2:05 AM


Re: Fabric of Space-Time
quote:
So what is it? non-physical OR nearing it?

This concerns views of the unknown, and IMHO, based on the universe being finite, everything came from nothing. Physicality is a denser cluster, whereby matter is a clumping of atoms more densely, as in iron and wood - the densest is the later, accumulated, more compressed stage. At one primal stage, all matter would have been gaseous, and before that a force, preceded by a program or some form of directive or directional inclination - namely the program had to be at least precedent or even pre-ordained. Physicality [matter] is a result or effect.

A sublimity would have occured, namely when a state is bypassed, as with a solid leaping over the liquid state and going directly to gas, whereby the solid 'sublimed' [towards non-corporeal or spirituality] - only this occurs in the reverse mode. Here, any action of any kind, would require some form of a triggering device, as in an external impact. And since a finite realm had no other parts preceding it, it could not have emerged from other things - excepting only a program, which acts like a thought or will to an action. So all physicality, by the reverse mode, had to once been non-existent or nothingness. I see no other way in a finite realm.

quote:

We have those things we all call physical, so what is it? nothing or something? These physical things are undeniable. They are real for us. So what do you mean nothing is physical? What are you saying about force? Force is not a thing, a physical thing.

Its about what physicality was before it emerged as being physical, not how it is now.

quote:

A matrix bed of space? What is that exactly? An object is placed on this thing? What is this thing?


Just as we require a floor to stand on, all the universe contents need a floor to contain it - else they would just clump into one mould and not be able to maintain seperate and differing parts. The universe operates on awesome enginnering works, same as does our bodies, and thus the space would have emerged before anything else, and this is what I mean by a matrix bed. If all works are seen as containing complex and critical engineering at the foundation, then a floor of sorts would have to be factored in, and it is.

quote:

Look! When you drop something in your enviroment right now, like a pen, what Force is moving it?


This is not by a subject force alone, because the enVironment itself is intergrated with the subject and the object. The intergration factor rules.

quote:

According to what science? Look up wave and electromagnetic wave and find out how and what makes waves.


I did that, but this refers to a later point, namely waves are he first line of balancing of levels, as from positive to negative, hot to cold, heavy to lighter, etc. I am not sure if the waves represent an effect or is the primal instigator, because the wave criteria is selective, purposeful and responsive to differing end results. IOW, if the waves were constant, then all results would be the same - but the results are not the same. So it appears the waves are responding to some other criteria, and impact differently on different elements, producing a vast menu of products and forces. The waves act as the strings of a puppeteer, enabling a puppet to act in different ways - but there is a reciprocity factor here: the puppet is receptive to the wave.


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 256 of 327 (473300)
06-28-2008 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by john6zx
06-28-2008 2:08 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
Spacetime is a quotient, namely an equation which represents the interaction of space and time.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 271 of 327 (473441)
06-29-2008 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by john6zx
06-29-2008 2:23 AM


Re: Fabric of Space-Time
quote:
Is energy a physical thing or not? Yes/No?

All universe content is physical [as opposed to what?!], including percieved nothingness or what we cannot yet see. Everything is basically from the same source, thus the quest to find the smallest denominator particle and a unifying force.

Energy is an effect of drag and density levels, and not a seperate, non-universal product. If the question was, what is behind all physicality, even behind quark realms, I would say a program, and one which is responsible for all results. Its not the fire or a bullet from a gun which is the end point; ultimately it is a program which produced the gun, the bullet and the fire. Physicality is a lumping or denser formation of the same particles which make up energy and all other stuff.

quote:

What is a sublimity?


This is an extra-ordinary leaping, and can apply however it is contexted.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


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