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Author Topic:   What is "the fabric" of space-time?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 277 of 327 (473515)
06-30-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by rueh
06-29-2008 3:48 PM


Re: ?????
raping my mind

That only happens if you become Republican :)


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by rueh, posted 06-29-2008 3:48 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by rueh, posted 06-30-2008 11:44 AM onifre has taken no action

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 279 of 327 (473518)
06-30-2008 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by john6zx
06-29-2008 6:55 AM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
You say it exists. I say, exists in what way. What makes it what it is? Break it down if you have to. Example: Spacetime is made of space and time, and then go on to show how space is a thing that exist as some sort of energy. Then go on and show how time exists as some sort of energy. Or something like that. I am sure that you get the idea.

The problem is that you are not understanding the explanations given to you by people who have been involved in cosmology for years, your understanding of the subject is then limited to your layman interpretations and definitions. What is being explained therefore passes you by. You repeateing your questions just further shows that you are unwilling to learn properly.

I'll ask you the simple question of : Can spacetime be warped?

You don't even need to search, heres the answer used for highschool physics classes,

http://www.pbs.org/deepspace/classroom/activity5.html

If you get the answer to that, and by 'get' I mean fully comprehend, you may also get a better understanding of what is meant by 'physical' in relation to spacetime...hope that helped.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by john6zx, posted 06-29-2008 6:55 AM john6zx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by john6zx, posted 07-13-2008 6:33 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 280 of 327 (473521)
06-30-2008 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by cavediver
06-29-2008 6:52 PM


Re: ?????
It is not that we are seeing the distant galaxies and quasars moving away at velocities that they were moving away from us at that time,

Is the speed at which we observe distant galaxies moving at, since it is said that further galaxies are moving away at greater velocities, due to spacetimes curvature and our obsevational point?

IOW, is the space between galaxies expanding at the same rate?

I hope my question makes sense...


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by cavediver, posted 06-29-2008 6:52 PM cavediver has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2008 3:42 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 282 of 327 (473557)
06-30-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by New Cat's Eye
06-30-2008 3:42 PM


Re: ?????
The distance and speeds are compounded by the space between our galaxy and the nearest one and the distance between the nearest one and the farther ones.

Make sense?

Yes, and the rubber band analogy was the same as I was shown last semester, they just never further explained it during the lecture since it was off topic to the lecture. It just now made more sense since you further explained how spacetimes'curvature makes it seem faster from our POV. Its an Euclidean geometric sphere that our Universe resembles...thats simpler now to understand.

The rubber band analogy then is almost like the infinity question of whats greater?,

1,2,3,4,5,6...
or
2,4,6,8,10...

its all equal.

Yes.

Cool. Yeah I figured as much I just didn't know if the speed had any relation to the total mass of a galaxy.

Thanks again.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2008 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by lyx2no, posted 06-30-2008 6:01 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 286 of 327 (473584)
06-30-2008 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by lyx2no
06-30-2008 6:01 PM


Re: Very ?????
I'm uncertain as to what you mean by this, but it seems you may be reading too much into a mechanical analogy. Can you expound upon it?

I may very well be reading too much into it, it just seemed similar in comparison to the rubber band analogy that CS gave me. He pointed to each point of the rubber band expanding equally, I was comparing that to the numbers increasing equally as well.

Did that make sense?


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by lyx2no, posted 06-30-2008 6:01 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by lyx2no, posted 07-01-2008 12:17 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 288 of 327 (473607)
07-01-2008 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by lyx2no
07-01-2008 12:17 AM


Re: Very ?????
The important points to get from this analogy are, "Why would objects farther away have proportionally greater red shift?" and,"Why do all locations seem locally to be the center?"

Question 1: The greater red-shifts are due to the curvature of spacetime, correct?

Question 2: Thats just the illusion that we are the center, from any other galaxies observational reference it would seem like they are the center, correct?

I use the same analogy frequently; however, I generally use a spring because springs have a built in unit, the coil. If one doubles the length of the spring, one doubles the length of each individual coil regardless of where in the spring it is located. The more coils two markers were separated by the more millimeters added to their separation after one second. Every coil sees all other coils moving away from themselves, and all see it in the exact same way

Yes this analogy, and the rubber band analogy, are both very simple to understand. The numbers analogy was just something that I connected with the rubber band analogy, it isn't actually the same.

It was an infinity question that we were asked, its a simple question but it can throw you off initially. Basically the question was 'whats the greater set of numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 etc... or 2,4,6,8,10,12 etc... Its obviously simple that if both go to infinity then both are equal, neither number is larger.

But when you write them above each other say,

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9....
2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16....
4,8,12,16,20,24,28,32...

Its all still the same however, they seem larger when you first look at it. This, to me, made a connection conceptually with the rubber band analogy, and now to your coil analogy.

Thanks for your analogy too, its been much help as well.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by lyx2no, posted 07-01-2008 12:17 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by lyx2no, posted 07-01-2008 7:06 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 291 of 327 (473724)
07-02-2008 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by lyx2no
07-01-2008 7:06 PM


Re: Very ?????
Remember, also, that according to the photon no time or space was crossed. It had a certain energy, and therefore wavelength, upon emission; and hence, bounced up and down only so many times in its frame and in ours.

Could you explain a bit more on this?

Not the part about the photons POV, but the bouncing up and down, im just now starting to understand quantum...a tiny bit :)

Is it the bouncing that creates the energy and therefore the wavelength?

Assuming thats correct, is it then the space thats expanding between the galaxies that stretches the wavelength causing the red-shift?

You wrote...

quote:
The cosmological red shift is caused by the expansion of the space between the signals source and the observer.

...I think this is the answer to what I just asked, but I just want to make sure that i've understood you properly.

It is more delusion than illusion, caused by conceit.

I would say its more a lack of understanding coupled with no desire to understand. The ego-centric human brain takes it from there.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by lyx2no, posted 07-01-2008 7:06 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2008 1:16 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 295 of 327 (473746)
07-02-2008 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by BMG
07-02-2008 12:54 PM


Re: Very ?????
Sorry to interrupt but I have a question.

By all means...

Does my frame of reference from earth change anything?

Yes in the sense that you are the observer of the photons' travel.

How can something that travels through space at c not be traveling through space?

The key word is 'relative'. Relative to the photon we are moving towards it.

Example: You leave Earth traveling at .99% the SoL. Ignoring the acceleration factor which would indicate to YOU that you're the one moving, the Earth in your frame of reference would seem like the one traveling at .99% the SoL away from you.

IOW, To you in the rocket, you are stationary and the Earth is pulling away from you.

An easier example would be you in a car traveling towards a wall. To you the wall is coming at you, to the wall you are coming at it. Again, ignoring accelaration.

Its all in the frame of reference of the observer.

Heres a great beginner lecture from Berkley,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kdq_1bcAYs

Hope that helped.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by BMG, posted 07-02-2008 12:54 PM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by BMG, posted 07-03-2008 6:16 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 296 of 327 (473747)
07-02-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by lyx2no
07-02-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Very ?????
You have. Sorry again, got to run.

Thanks again lyx2no...


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2008 1:16 PM lyx2no has taken no action

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 304 of 327 (473944)
07-03-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by BMG
07-03-2008 6:16 AM


Re: Very ?????
Regarding the twin paradox, the twin that leaves earth at .99% the SOL and travels for six months only to make a return trip of six months will have aged roughly one year, while the twin left on the earth will have aged roughly 7.1 years?

Yes

And the only evidence that the twin leaving earth was actually moving was the acceleration they experienced?

Yes

Otherwise, there would have been no way of knowing which one was moving and which wasn't?

Yes

It really all starts to make sense when you understand relativity and what it implies. Until you hit quantum physics and then im fuck'n lost again...till next semester hopefully :)


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by BMG, posted 07-03-2008 6:16 AM BMG has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by john6zx, posted 07-13-2008 3:33 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 318 of 327 (475157)
07-13-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by john6zx
07-13-2008 3:33 AM


Re: Very ?????
Is this a quote from a movie or something? I am curious as to why anyone would say this.

This is a quote from the person pictured in my avatar.


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by john6zx, posted 07-13-2008 3:33 AM john6zx has taken no action

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2178 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 322 of 327 (475166)
07-13-2008 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by john6zx
07-13-2008 6:33 PM


Re: the gravity of general relativity
Seems like even the high school demo went over your head as well. No matter. The only point of the demo was to give you a starting point to answering your own question about space-time yourself. If it can be warped then it IS a 'thing', from there you can begin to understand what that 'thing' is.

This type of demonstration does not explain what space-time is, it does not explain what this fabric of space-time is made of. This demonstration does not explain how this fabric came to be. It does not explain what this fabric is located in.

Correct, but, it does show you that space-time is there and ojects with mass affect it. The demo establishes space-time as a physical thing...that was the only point I was trying to make.

Is this really scientific proof of the existance of space-time?

Yes, however, if you are looking for what its made up of then you have not understood what space-time actually is.

I could go on about this and how unscientific it is, but all I need to point out is that I have been saying that space is not a physical thing, and this website that you offered up is supposed to give proof that space is a real physical thing.

Ok then if space-time is not a physical thing, why does a planet cause it to distort?

Wouldn't there be NO effect on something thats not physically there?

Edited by onifre, : spelling


All great truths begin as blasphemies

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by john6zx, posted 07-13-2008 6:33 PM john6zx has taken no action

  
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