Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,773 Year: 4,030/9,624 Month: 901/974 Week: 228/286 Day: 35/109 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Einstein try to destroy science?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 83 (378283)
01-20-2007 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
01-19-2007 7:16 PM


randman
Personally I think the statement was just plain wrong in a lot of ways, but I think it was refreshing that a physicist would make such a statement about one potential conclusion of QM and that the physics community would not reject the statement a priori just because God is mentioned.
Then you would be interested to know the reply to that statement Einstein made to one Neils Bohr. Mr Bohr replied "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."
Here is another quote from Einstein that perhaps clarifies things a bit.
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
So God in this instance is synonymous with the structure of the world and the beauty that a deep understanding of the intricacy inherent there invites. God is merely the only word capable in the weak currency that human language employs to encompass the feelings that are prevalent among scientists as they investigate the subtle and grandeur of the world that equations and logic reveal.
Scientists run the gamut in range of beliefs and theologies but the science never hinder but enlightens them personally. Now, this is not support for the existence of God of and by itself, but simply the personal human response to the world they view.
The term God is used by even ardent atheist scientists such as Richard Feynman in a quote given here.
Which End Is Closer To God?
We have a way of discussing the world, when we talk of it at various hierarchies, or levels. Now I do not mean to be very precise, dividing the world into definite levels, but I will indicate, by describing a set of ideas, what I mean by hierarchies of ideas.
For example, at one end we have the fundamental laws of physics. Then we invent other terms for concepts which are approximate, which have, we believe, their ultimate explanation in terms of the fundamental laws. For instance, "heat". Heat is supposed to be jiggling, and the word for a hot thing is just the word for a mass of atoms which are jiggling. But for a while, if we are talking about heat, we sometimes forget about the atoms jiggling- just as when we talk about the glacier we do not always think of the hexgonal ice and the snowflakes which originally fell. Another example of the same thing is a salt crystal. Looked at fundamentally it is a lot of protons, neutrons, and electrons; but we have this concept of "salt crystal", which carries a whole pattern already of fundamental interactions. An idea like pressure is the same.
Now if we go higher up from this, in another level we have properties of substances- like "refractive index", how light is bent when it goes through something; or "surface tension", the fact that water tends to pull itself together, both of which are described by numbers. I remind you that we have to go through several laws down to find out that it is the pull of the atoms, and so on. But we still say "surface tension", and do not always worry, when discussing surface tension, about the inner workings.
On, up in the hierarchy. With the water we have waves, and we have a thing like a storm, the word "storm" which represents an enormous mass of phenomena, or a "sun spot", or "star", which is an accumulation of things. And it is not worthwhile always to think of it way back. In fact we cannot, because the higher up we go the more steps we have in between, each one of which is a little weak. We have not thought them all through yet.
As we go up in this hierarchy of complexity, we get to things like muscle twitch, or nerve impulse, which is an enormously complicated thing in the physical world, involving an organization of matter in a very elaborate complexity. Then come things like "frog".
And then we go on, and we come to words and concepts like "man", and "history", or "political expediency", and so forth, a series of concepts which we use to understand things at an ever higher level.
And going on, we come to things like evil, and beauty, and hope...
Which end is nearer to God, if I may use a religious metaphor, beauty and hope, or the fundamental laws? I think that the right way, of course, is to say that what we have to look at is the whole structural interconnection of the thing; and that all the sciences, and not just the sciences but all the efforts of intellectual kinds, are an endeavour to see the connections of the hierarchies, to connect beauty to history, to connect history to man's psychology, man's psychology to the working of the brain, the brain to the neural impulse, the neural impulse to the chemistry, and so forth, up and down, both ways. And today we cannot, and it is no use making believe that we can, draw carefully a line all the way from one end of this thing to the other, because we have only just begun to see that there is this relative hierarchy.
And I do not think either end is nearer to God. To stand at either end, and to walk off that end of the pier only, hoping that out in that direction is the complete understanding, is a mistake. And to stand with evil and beauty and hope, or to stand with the fundamental laws, hoping that way to get a deep understanding of the whole world, with that aspect alone, is a mistake. It is not sensible for the ones who specialize at the other end, to have such disregard for each other. (They don't actually, but people say they do.) The great mass of workers in between, connecting one step to another, are improving all the time our understanding of the world, both from working at the ends and working in the middle, and in that way we are gradually understanding this tremendous world of interconnecting hierarchies.
It is vital in explaining things that those regions that are not resolved must still be communicated in some way. The term God can do this quite well without the need to invoke any supernatural artifact yet convey the enormity of the universe and the complexity of the phenomena.
It is merely metaphor in some cases though as the range of people who do science shows the levels of faith and lack of such are large indeed. But then , in science, it matters not your quality faith but your quality of arguement.
So to answer your question it would make no more difference today than back then though, given the advances on physics since then we can be fairly confident that Einstein would have modified his objection in light of the new understandings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 7:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 2:05 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 17 by Brad McFall, posted 01-20-2007 2:06 PM sidelined has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 19 of 83 (378420)
01-20-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
01-20-2007 2:05 AM


Re: I liked Bohrs' comment
randman
You try to remove Einstein's sense of spirit and mysticism from his faith. I have seen others do that as well, and you miss what Einstein is saying. It is true he didn't believe in a personal God you should pray to, but likewise he believed God was more than matter and energy
I beg to differ but the impression of a spirit called God was evident in the quote I posted. You are ,however, correct that mysticism does not enter into it though mystery does.
I find nowhere that the God he describes is something more than matter and energy but rather a sense of order that emerges from the understanding of matter and energy.
randman writes:
To claim Einstein merely used and believed in God as a sort of metaphor grossly misinterprets who Einstein was and what he believed.
I do not see this to be the case at all. Let us examine another quote.
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
It is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
This, then is the crux of the matter.A God that cares nothing about the ongoings of men and their affairs and the moral proclivities thereof is hardly a God in the sense as is commonly used in practice by most people. Metaphor is an apt term since God is used only as a stand in for the personal feeling of appreciation for the structure that science unveils when proper questions are asked.
Now as to the quote in the original post concerning dice. It has been subsequently found that the quantum mechanics to which it refers successfully describes the world to an accuracy not matched anywhere else.
That the nature of that which quantum mechanics describes is completely beyond our ability to visualize or really understand in the sense that we do classical physics is not a fault of the theory but of the fact that things on such immensely small scales operate in ways that we cannot resolve completely. That the world operates in a way that is beyond our meager senses ability to bring into focus is a result of the structure of the world itself.
It is the fact that the quantum mechanics violated the sense of comprehensibility of the universe that I think was of personal importance to Einstein and that this is the source of his reaction to it. In todays world of applications of quantum mechanics in realms of technology then Einstein would have to learn to reevaluate his conception of what constitutes a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 2:05 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 5:02 PM sidelined has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 44 of 83 (378878)
01-22-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by randman
01-21-2007 3:41 PM


Re: I liked Bohrs' comment
randman
randman writes:
There is no denying Einstein advocated using one's religion in science and vice versa. He felt religious beliefs should be tempered with science, but also that true science should be religious in nature, seeking an experience and understanding of the Divine Spirit.
It would appear that the divine is not within the realm of Einsteins thinking either.
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events.
Nor did he ascribe to the afterlife
An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.
Nor an efficiency of prayer
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a
wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
Just how much of the notions that Einstein professed do you wish to use as a basis for supporting your own beliefs to the contrary?
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by randman, posted 01-21-2007 3:41 PM randman has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 59 of 83 (381977)
02-02-2007 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by randman
02-02-2007 5:53 PM


Re: incredible
randman
Moreover, you take his comments out of context when you refer to Nature or the Universe, and refuse to acknowledge that his ideas of the Universe and Nature include a divine intelligence.
I find it difficult to understand exactly what you mean by divine. Einstein mention the word in his writings as follows:
neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events.
and
a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value ... regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities.
Perhaps you are aware of some other writings of his that refer to the divine as an entity rather than a condition. If so please refer us to them.

"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides." - Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 5:53 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 6:21 PM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 62 of 83 (381981)
02-02-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by randman
02-02-2007 6:21 PM


Re: incredible
randman
I read that sentence as denying any human or divine will as a cause independant of natural events. In other words, nature has no event that is divinely or humanly willed into existence. This strikes me as a denial of the divine actually and instead places the events of the universe as belonging solely to the phenomena themselves.

"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides." - Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 6:21 PM randman has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024