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Author Topic:   Creationist theory
Syamsu 
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Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 1 of 151 (317035)
06-02-2006 2:16 PM


Creationism is really just quite straighforward valid science, it is also common knowledge which we use every day, and really can't do without. Far from being unscientific, creationism covers a huge, and rich class of knowledge, which knowledge is oppressed by mainstream science because mainstream science can't deal with things turning out one way or another, indeterminacy.
Creationist theory depends on the three principles of creator, act of creation, and the created object. I will illustrate the principles of creationism with Michealangelo's painting in the sixtine chapel.
The creator:
Who is Michealangelo? It is not sufficient in creationism (or actually it is mostly irellevant) to say how tall Michaelangelo is, or how much he weighs in considering him as the creator of the painting. Within the context of creationism identity-issues are solely about who is Michealangelo as the owner of his choices. Who is Michaelangelo in his heart, in his soul etc. Who does Michealangelo love and hate etc. Who Michaelangelo is this way can only be approached subjectively by relating your spirit to his, through your own choices.
To somehow pretend to make some objective appraisal of who Michealangelo is in his heart, to try to rule out subjectivity from judgement, merely results in coldhearted merciless judgement. But it is a judgement nevertheless, and such knowledge of the heart can never attain the status of fact.
So in this sense of identity-issues creationism is not objective, and generally opposes objectivity. There is no science about who Michaelangelo is as the owner of his choices, this is an art of judgement. So creationism here stands opposed by social-darwinist pseudoscience, such as evolutionary psychology, which proposes to objectively know emotions. So the statement "Michaelangelo is a loving person", might be a statement of fact to an evolutionary psychologist, but the same statement is regarded as an art of judgement by a creationist. Also what pseudoscientists commonly do is to assert as objective fact that a decision has no spiritual or emotional owner at all (such selfproclaimed "objective" assertions of lack of spirit are usually attached to findings of randomness).
The act of creation:
Creation is an effort of choice. Unlike identity issues, this is simply science. We may simply search and find the precise location of a decision. At this location we will find nothing, or zero, meaning no material, also called creatio-ex-nihilo. Why we find nothing at the location of a decision is because material predetermines a result. Our consideration of material is based on a past effecting a present. So it would make no sense if we would find a material thing at the location of a decision, because material, in our concept of it, only predetermines, and never decides.
Consider for instance Michaelangelo choosing what to do in painting the picture. Now if we consider Michaelangelo merely as a material object, we might suppose that the painting just flows directly from some genius-genes mediated by the environment unto the canvas. But the problem with such a theory is that it negates the possibility of an alternative result. So in this materialist scenario there is no actual choosing, because any alternative result is impossible.
So it is demonstrated, merely by definition, that it is impossible that we would find a material thing at the location of a decision, because of the impossiblity of material leading to an alternative.
The evidence is, that there is indeed nothing at the point of decision. Some credible scientists told me that the origin of randomness in a zener-diode was at the socalled "quantum mechanical zeropoint". From this point random noise is generated, meaning more or less, one can't deduce the pattern of electrons coming out of the diode, from the pattern of electrons coming into the diode. So it means the "pattern" of electrons is decided at the precise location of the qmz-point.
Some scientists consider the qmz point real, and that nothing exists there, others consider the qmz-point not real, since there is nothing there.
Further evidence to illustrate the logical coherency of the creationist interpretation of quantum mechanics in terms of chances getting decided, is the probability-distribution of an electron around an atom.
File:HAtomOrbitals.png - Wikipedia
The creationist interpretation of this picture is that at the qmz point (which is in the center of the probabilitydistribution) is the location where the chance where the electron might be is decided. So this theory says among other things that;
- the location of the electron changes per decision
- and consequently that there is a speed or sequence of decisions
- it says that chances are basically real, and inhabit the future
- it says the location where the decision is made on the chance where the electron ends up, is not neccessarily the same as the location where the electron ends up. So the decision is at one location, the result may be at another location.
Now we have basically "seen" how creationism is true, seen a chance, and seen the location at which the decision on the chance is made.
From these basic assertions of fact follows the question, how does one decision relate to another decision?
The creation:
The creation in the sense of relating one decision to another, is only an informational entity. We derived the principle of creation from the principle of choosing, the simplest representation of choices are binary in the sense of 1 or 0. And so we must guess that somehow from choosing we derive informational entities constructed in terms of zero's and ones.
When Michealangelo created his painting, the purpose of his painting was not so much the painting itself, but it was for instance, the decision whether he liked the painting or not. So we can see how in creation one decision relates to another, and the creation (the painting) is the medium by which one decision relates to another.
And it is a similar principle with God and His original creation by choice of His free will, which choice in the end will relate to another decision, which is of course His Final Judgement on judgementday.
Some more points for consideration:
- the point at which a chance changes, or is realized or negated (becomes 1 or 0), is called a decision. So creationist science is largely based around tracing back the probabilities of the appearance of a thing, to the decisions at which those probabilities were determined. One might easily imagine this for instance in terms of a line chart of the probability of human beings coming to be. For instance we might say that the probability of people appearing later on, was already 90 percent at the start of the universe, given normal development of the universe. And so we might draw a chart where the probability goes up and down, and every turn in the chart relates to a decision at a location, until final appearance. That is how creationist science works.
- decisions relate a future of chances to a present, effects relate a past of causes to a present. One must always be aware of the timeperspective when criticizing creationism, because creationism is not a cause and effect principle, it is a principle of free will. It is very easy to fall into the trap of discounting creationism by applying the usual rules for criticizing scientific theories. Many of these rules in science only apply to cause and effect principles, and are irrellevant to principles of free will.
- again; the owners to decision are covered by identity-issues which fall outside of science. Such identities can only be approached subjectively through an art of one's own judgement. This broadly includes emotions, spiritual, what's in the heart the soul, God etc, all manner of judgement of good and evil, or loving and hateful etc. So it would be no use to ask for objective evidence of God, because within creationism such evidence is fashioned by an art of judgement.
- since emotions may be manifest at a point of decision, scientists must be ethically constrained to investigate points of decision. The reason why scientists are currently constrained in investigating people for instance, should be interpreted to be because of this reason. That is to say, we know at which location human decisons are, and we know that emotions may be manifest at a point of decision, we know that pain may be manifest at a point of decision, therefore we don't allow scientists to experiment with human beings at these particular points of decision for the reason that in doing so they may induce pain there. The safe side of ethics demands that we acknowledge in principle a spiritual owner to any decision anywhere.
and so on, and so on...
One can easily see that most of creationism is highly credible, because much of the knowledge is already engrained within common knowledge, and religion, and science also in many ways. Basically creationism is as credible as it is credible that things may turn out one way or another.
The current mode of interpretation of quantum-mechanics which basically omits decisions, and generally denies chances are real, has been heavily criticized from it's conception (Schroedinger's cat for instance). So creationism here only competes to a mode of interpretation that has already been acknowledged as weak.
Remembering that creationism gives insight into decisions and chances, and how one decision relates to another, decisionspeed etc., the sort of technological application we might expect creationism to lead to are things like:
- artificial consciousness in computers
- artifical beings of massive potential for emotions
- pseudo-superconductivity by centralizing many points of decision to one point and so the electron will pass through a collective of atoms per instance, rather then pass through many individual atoms per instance.
- increased efficiency of jetengines by the atoms being blown out of the engine being rapidly precisely stacked for optimal push ie. one relates the points of decison one to another, giving a structure.
- teleporting of objects through the quantumtunnels that appear at concentrated qmz-points, related to a concentration of qmz points elsewhere
- wheathermodels that locate points of decision in the weathersystem
Well of course, these are just conjectural technological applications that I thought of at the top of my head just now. But although the reasoning behind these creationist technologies is lacking, it is still reasonable to assume that there would be lots of technological application following from science about decisions, the location of them, how they relate to one another, the decisionspeed etc. simply because knowledge about "decision" comprises a fundamental class of knowledge. How much technological application follows from knowledge of chance and decision, may be equal to how much technology followed from knowledge of cause and effect, these are both fundamental classes of knowledge.
One may find in nature "natural democracies", and "natural dictatorships", that is to say that there is a potential for rich and meaningful knowledge of structures of decisionpoints that exist presently in nature, but are outside of our sight simply because we aren't looking for points of decision. And so creationism gets us closer to the truth, which was the purpose in the first place.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-05-2006 1:30 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 06-05-2006 4:59 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 17 by Gary, posted 06-10-2006 12:21 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2006 11:24 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 50 by kuresu, posted 06-18-2006 12:50 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 55 by kuresu, posted 06-18-2006 11:56 PM Syamsu has replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 4 of 151 (317979)
06-05-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object
06-05-2006 1:30 PM


My reference to God's final judgement is from the Quran, which message is repeated over and over again in the book. I think it is significant. I also hinted at actually finding the decision at which God created man, in referring to a decision from which precise point it went from 0 to 90 percent sure that man would appear.
But otherwise the issue here is creation versus evolution. I take that literally and generally. So it is not Islam versus evolution, but creation versus evolution. And so I explain the principles of creation science in general. To explain creation science by comparison of people creating something is an established practice within creation science, which for instance goes back to William Paley who explained creation science by comparison of a watchmaker creating a watch.
Also I do not want to invite atheists to comment upon Islam, I'm happy that Western ideologues don't have a handle on Islam. So that's why I don't mention much from the Quran.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 6 of 151 (318114)
06-05-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
06-05-2006 4:59 PM


Re: Creationism is not science
Well, evidently you haven't actually read my post, as is well shown by that you don't distinguish the objective and subjective parts of creationism.
You have to be more precise about what you find unclear about creation science.
What creationism people use every day is of course the common knowledge form of it.
For the rest of it, your posting just has no content. So I suggest you read my post and argue some specific point. What exactly do you find to be unscientific about creation science?
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 9 of 151 (318205)
06-06-2006 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
06-06-2006 1:03 AM


Re: Creationism is not science
Right there is nothing there for me to respond to. I have many times objected to the formulation of natural selection theory, but I have been precise about what I objected to in the formulation. Your bland statements that creationism is unclear, ill-defined and subjective just reveal your prejudices about creationism.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 06-06-2006 1:03 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 06-06-2006 2:20 PM Syamsu has replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 12 of 151 (318391)
06-06-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
06-06-2006 2:20 PM


Re: Creationism is not science
Creationism may not be perfect but it is workable. We can trace back the origin of things to the decisions at which they were created, and we can also engage an art of judgement to the spiritual owner of such decisions. We do this all the time in our daily life.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

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 Message 11 by nwr, posted 06-06-2006 2:20 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 16 of 151 (319635)
06-09-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
06-09-2006 3:18 PM


Well I have never yet met a creationist, who denies creation occurs per choice, so can you answer the question;
Does God create by His own choice?
If you would answer affirmatively I would not take this as supporting everything I said, but... when you acknowledge choices as real (which incedentally scientists generally don't do), then a whole lot of logic follows from that...
It seems to me that in your theory, you tend to employ the logic of mind, rather then the logic of choice.
I could largely place you theory within mine, as a proposed ethical approach to choices, which ethical approach to choices leads to gathering an optimum of information from any choice.
So I can reconstrue your theory as saying, using a Biblical frame of reference for regarding any choice gives the optimum amount of information from that choice. So when someone regards a choice within a Biblical frame of reference, that person may correctly deduce the purpose of that choice.
But I think you might be making a mistake in this, because you are omitting that you can only relate to a choice, by another choice. One cannot for instance program the Bible into a computeprogram, and then the computerprogram would find the purpose in a choice. This is because, as of yet, computerprograms can't choose, and therefore can't relate to choices.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 18 of 151 (319883)
06-10-2006 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Gary
06-10-2006 12:21 AM


Generally as systemized knowledge about the way things are based on experience of the senses. The most useful rule in systemizing being Occam's razor, which separates knowledge in terms of efficiency of explanation.
The main thing that makes science special, is that it seperates objective from subjective. The objective part would then be science.
I think I explained well enough how creationism seperates objectivity from subjectivity.
As also explained before, it is actually materialism, atheism, and those kinds of disciplines in thought, which tend to fail to separate the objective from subjective.
This is because those disciplines do not actually acknowledge a domain to which subjectivity applies. So not acknowledging a domain where they can't go, they proceed to include everything into science as objective, including love etc.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

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 Message 17 by Gary, posted 06-10-2006 12:21 AM Gary has replied

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 21 of 151 (319949)
06-10-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
06-10-2006 11:24 AM


Re: General philosophy versus science
Well this is still nothing much for me to respond to.
As explained before, it is wrong to ask objective evidence for identity-issues. So I deny that you have objective evidence about who Michaelangelo is as the creator of the painting.
Apparently you consider it unscientific to determine the probability of anything at some point, or only the probability of human beings appearing you consider unscientific?????
Then you say something about looking at things in terms of decisions on chances gives you no meaningful insight about how things are.
If that is so, then explain to me how would you go about describing the randomness of the zener-diode, or the probability-distribution of an electron around an atom?
For instance how can an electron go from one place to another around an atom, if not per decision?
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2006 11:24 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 22 of 151 (319954)
06-10-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Gary
06-10-2006 8:12 AM


Obviously creationism is based on indeterminacy, that given the same parameters you may get one of several possible results.
So when you talk about repeatibility, you merely seem to be excluding indeterminacy.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Gary, posted 06-10-2006 8:12 AM Gary has replied

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 25 of 151 (320094)
06-10-2006 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Modulous
06-10-2006 3:32 PM


Re: General philosophy versus science
As before, the subjective view of Michealangelo is most important when we consider him as a creator, not the objective. So you are skewing this the wrong way when you say you have objective evidence of Michaelangelo as a creator. The only objective evidence of creation really is when you find the locations of the decisions.
Well I already indicated what kind of evidence about decisions I find acceptable, with the zener-diode, the electron around the atom, and using statistics to trace back probabilities.
I also indicated how creationism is relevant to God several places, by acknowleding the spiritual domain as owners to decisions, and by finding signficant decisions such as the the creation of human beings, and creationism is also instrumental in recognition of the final judgement.
I agree it get's a bit hypertheoretical towards creations as informational entitities (although one can well see how deciding one of several possibilities relates closely to informationconcepts), although there still the basics that a creation exists between 2 points of decision is not IMO hyperspeculative.
In any case the basics are simply useful already, as you can well see for instance by talking about the location of the electron changing per decision.
It is imperative for a great many tasks that people know how to handle describing decisions. Actually it mostly is already teached in kindergarden, but this needs to simply be acknowledged as fundamental knowledge in science in general.
By my experience in debating and reading about it, I am quite sure that quite a large percentage of scientists do not actually know how to describe in terms of decision. How to describe in terms of it being true that things may turn out one way or another. So really this is a huge level of ignorance about a subject which is fundamental.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 27 of 151 (320436)
06-11-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Modulous
06-10-2006 9:32 PM


Re: General philosophy versus science
Again, you are skewing this the wrong way. When a fat man makes a choice, the choice isn't neccessarily either fat or male. So your observation of a fat man painting a picture is basically meaningless.
I already explained how to detect the spiritual realm, it's when you relate your spirit by your own choice, to the choice of another. It is subjective, and we do this all the time in socializing.
Well I already showed you the evidence of decisions. There is just a word neccessary to describe the point where it goes from one of several possible results to an actual result, and so this word is appropiately decison.
Since I gave some very specific examples already, and since you are obviously insisting that it be about specific things and not just general philosophy, why don't you just address the specific examples I gave? What your problem is with them.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

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 Message 26 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2006 9:32 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 29 of 151 (320748)
06-12-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
06-12-2006 8:08 AM


Re: General philosophy versus science
Quite clearly you are just desperately grasping for cause and effect explanations (the 11th dimension and whatnot), when there is a giant body of knowledge which says otherwise, which says that it is indeterminate.
What you are arguing is just prejudice, and arguably, a very foul prejudice. Certainly nobody likes it when their choice, their courageous or even cowardly choice, is mistaken for a cause and effect.
You dismiss my description, but you haven't even shown that you are able to describe in terms of indeterminacy.
So again, why don't you argue the location of an electron around the atom, in terms of indeterminacy? That's enough of a specific example.
What it adds to say that the elecron changes the location per decision, is for one thing, that it makes sense, where other explanations I've seen (the kind of explanations that depend on cat's being alive and dead at the same time) fail to make sense even.
And of course other things follow from closer examination in terms of decision, such as the speed of decision etc.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 06-12-2006 8:08 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 31 of 151 (320838)
06-12-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
06-12-2006 9:52 AM


Re: determinacy
I agree that we don't know everything, so arguments about everything can be discarded. I'm not actually saying that everything is indeterminate, you are saying that everything may be predetermined. So, you are the one making arguments about everything, not I.
I think it's more to the point here to compare creationist way of describing indeterminacy, with other ways of describing indeterminacy.
So you know, argue something. I'm not going to explain again, I don't see the need to repeat myself, you have to ask a specific question if there's something you don't understand.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 33 of 151 (321071)
06-13-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Modulous
06-13-2006 8:22 AM


Re: determinacy
You only gave some reference to some opinionating evcforum posting! This is significant how? It was just the usual nay-saying against indeterminacy without much of any basis. It would be more meaningful if you could reference some nay-sayer who at least demonstrates their capability to describe in terms of indeterminacy in rejecting it.
I don't want you to expand on theories that *everything* is determinate. Such philosphical meandering about everything is incredibly boring. I just want you to give some alternative theories of indeterminacy that discount the creationist theory of indeterminacy.
I specially exluded ojbective evidence for the spiritual, and IMO such acknowledgement of a border beyond which science can't go, is still a part of science, as should be learned in a basic science class.
I agree this debate is meaningless. So for the last time I ask you, argue for instance; another way then the creationist way to describe the change in location of an elecron around an atom in terms of indeterminacy.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Modulous, posted 06-13-2006 8:22 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 35 of 151 (321120)
06-13-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
06-13-2006 10:30 AM


Re: determinacy
Go ahead and argue for determinacy, but such is a very weak argument. When you do that it simply gives credibility to what I say at the start of my original posting, which is that science can't handle indeterminacy. I'm pretty sure that to most readers this assertion would seem a doubtful point at first. But when you give a critque of the creationist way of handling indeterminacy, by basically denying indeterminacy althogether, then.... it becomes very credible that scientists actually can't handle indeterminacy.
IMO such arguments for determinacy aren't worth considering, and like I said, they are very boring, so I would probably not respond.
As far as I've read your referred debate, one of them has it backwards. AFAIK the electron as a particle does exist, the electron as a wave doesn't exist. That is to say the electron wave does exist but it only exists in the future as a probability, while only the electron particle exists in the present.
So when you here say that an electron isn't a thing, I think very probably you are just disregarding the different timeperspectives, and getting them mixed up.
regards,
Mohammad Nur Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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