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Author Topic:   Creationist theory
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 50 of 151 (322902)
06-18-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Syamsu
06-02-2006 2:16 PM


Objectivity
Science rests on being objective, as per methodological naturalism.
You state that creationism is a valid science.
You state it rests on three things: the creator, the act of creation, and the created.
Now then, each of these must be treated in an objective manner in order to even begin being treated as science. And unfortunatlely, you state:
in this sense of identity-issues creationism is not objective, and generally opposes objectivity
Which means that creationism is subjective. Which means creationism can never be science. Oh well.
On a side note, do you consider the creator to be "supernatural", a category to which God belongs?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Syamsu, posted 06-02-2006 2:16 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Syamsu, posted 06-18-2006 2:28 PM kuresu has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 52 of 151 (322919)
06-18-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Syamsu
06-18-2006 2:28 PM


Re: Objectivity
what?
I don't think objectivity is everywhere. It's just one of the most important parts of science. When did I make a comment about how loving or hating people were?
This isn't even relevant. You've done nothing but make an assertion, and haven' even addressed what I brought up. Try doing that first.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Syamsu, posted 06-18-2006 2:28 PM Syamsu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 54 of 151 (322971)
06-18-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Syamsu
06-18-2006 5:18 PM


From a further reading of your OP, it seems to be heavily based on quantam mechanics/physics, an area I'm not too familiar with. Give me a couple of days so that I can fully understand what you are saying and how it relates to creationism. And from a quick breifing of your list of how to criticize creationism, I'm not sure how any of that is falsifiable. Again, give me just a little bit to try to understand better.
Please note, I'm not about to give up.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Syamsu, posted 06-18-2006 5:18 PM Syamsu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 55 of 151 (323080)
06-18-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Syamsu
06-02-2006 2:16 PM


okay, I'm going to see if I understand your post first, and then get to the criticisms you listed in one of the last posts. I just want to make sure I've got your concept right.
Keep in mind, I'm paraphrasing what you wright, not making criticisms yet.
First, creationism is a theory that depends on the creator, the act of creation, and the created.
The point you get across with the creator section:
Knowing physical characteristics of the "creator" are not important. What is important is that we determine who the "creator" is as owner of his choices. However, in order to determine who the "creator" is as owner of his choices, we must use subjective methods. This is not science, but an act of judgement.
In the act of creation segment, your point is:
Creation is a choice. We can find and locate the definite location of this choice. There is nothing material at this location, because matter can only exist after choice. This is based off of cause-effect relationships, and it makes sense because material never decides, but predetermines.
I'm not sure what you mean by evidence supporting the creationism view of quantum mechanics. If the wiki link was supposed to help, it didn't. Anywho, you make the point that there is a probability of a chance (event?) being decided. I don't really get that. Main point--decisions affect location, which is determined by chance, and chance inhabits the future. So far it looks like basic quantam mechanics to me.
So far I don't see how this ties into creationism.
Now for your "created" section:
The created is an informational entity, because of how decisions relate to one another (I think this has something to do with the "cascade" effect you outlined at the end of the "act of" segment). The prinicipal of creation is derived from the principle of choosing. And the simplest representation of these choices, or decisions, is the binary sytem of 1 and 0. Therefore, the informational entities are constructed in binary. To me, it sounds like you are saying that everything in existence is nothing more than computer code, and not in an analog (which, as I understand, is how the natural world is represented). The created is also the medium for the "creator" to link two decisions.
Now then, for the "more things to consider" section:
the point at which chance changes, or in other words, becomes realized, is called the decision. Therefore, creation science is concerned with backtracking decisions to the original chance. Decisions relate future chances to the present. Effects relate past causes to present. Creationism is free will.
No objective evidence can be asked for, in terms of the "creator". In other words, we cannot objectively know what the "creator" loves, hates, etc.
And science cannot test on humans, because it must take into consideration that decisions can have emotions manifest in them, such as pain.
This creationism science can be used to make a whole slew of technical advances.
Okay, I'm not going to do any major criticisms here, because I want to make sure I got the jist of what you're saying first, but it looks like you want to hold creation science to a different set of rules than normal science (such as when you make comments that you cannot criticize it like normal science) (such as the oft repeated lack of objectivity concerning the creator, which you refuse to discuss, and as it's been brought up too many times, I will avoid it), and you make a whole slew of assertions, which at some points seem to contradict one another. But first, please tell me whether or not I got the jist of your argument. If I didn't in some places, please, futher explain. After that, I will gladly debate with you.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Syamsu, posted 06-02-2006 2:16 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Syamsu, posted 06-19-2006 3:58 AM kuresu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 61 of 151 (324015)
06-20-2006 5:32 PM


Okay, it looks as if I've still got posting permission (but this may be because I can still post in the "Why is the process blind" thread), so if I'm not suppossed to be here, please let me know (any admins).
As you say, Syamsu, creation theory rests on three principles--the creator, the act of creation, and the created. You go on to state that nothing can be known about the creator objectively, and no, I'm not going to bark up the same tree. The problem here, is that that means that the creator's existence is then subjective, and can only be known subjectively, which means that science must then assume that the creator exists, which completely goes against the neutral stance science has on the existence of the supernatural and non-testable.
Your theory depends on the creator's existence. But as it can only be known subjectively, we will never know for certain whether or not he exists--you feel he does, I feel he does not, Faith and Herapton feel He does, Quetzal and others do not. If we can't have something concrete for the foundation of a theory, it's already in pretty shoddy shape. And unfortunately for you, there is no conrete foundation of a creator.
Please keep in mind, it's not so much that you are requiring this portion of your theory to be subjective and science has to be objective, it's that there's a problem with existence becoming a subjective matter, especially when this existence is required for the theory's validity. It's kind off like a logical fallacy.
If you want more (syamsu), let me know. If I've overstepped my priveleges,(admins) please let me know.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Syamsu, posted 06-20-2006 5:58 PM kuresu has not replied
 Message 64 by AdminNWR, posted 06-20-2006 7:37 PM kuresu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 62 of 151 (324027)
06-20-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Cold Foreign Object
06-19-2006 3:32 PM


Re: General philosophy versus science
Science assumes the existence of a Creator/Designer
No. science does not assume the existence of any supernatural events. In fact, even if something is entirely natural, and it's not testable and repeatable, it's existence is subject to a "unkown", much like God.
It is only your, religious right, reactionary, psuedoscience that assumes God. You, as you did in your thread, Herapton, have confused Ontological naturalism (which is aetheism), with methodological naturalism. Again. For at least the second time. Go reread my post concerning what both are (in your thread).
It's very difficult to debate with people who REFUSE to abandon their preconceptions and bias's. You may say I have one, and I do--against idiots. I honestly don't care if God is behind this universe or not.
And if I get banned from this thread, so be it. You can all be left to espouse your BS and think you have won. And when the rest of the world leaves you behind because your skull is too thick to accept reason, don't come crying to me.
But if any of you all actually want to have your "theories" challenged, then let us in. We are welcome to challenge--can you post a challenge to the ToE--one that is scientifically valid and hasn't been debunked before? I'm not talking about that shit that Hovind spells out, or any of those other quacks. I'm talking about--find REAL, SCIENTIFIC evidence to challenge ToE. You will see us accept the challenge, it's part of science--having your theories and hypotheses tested and challenged with science--not mother's tale crack. (however, there is often some bit of wisdom in those tales).

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-19-2006 3:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-20-2006 10:41 PM kuresu has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2540 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 66 of 151 (324153)
06-20-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object
06-20-2006 10:41 PM


Re: General philosophy versus science
you know, I'm not supposed to post in this thread, but I can in yours. However, I give up in trying to re-educate your bias against science--you still don't get the difference between ontological and methodological naturalism. For some one claiming to know who is the liar, you oughta look in the mirror. For you continue to decieve yourself because of your prejudices and bias's. As I said--my only bias is against stupid idiots--I can't stand them. Ignorance is another matter, but you are not ignorant. You refuse to learn the difference, and as such, are stupid. It's fact, not insult. Look at the definition. And with that--you can have this corner, silently gleeing at an empty victory, for I doubt that your God will forgive you for not using the gifts He gave you.
And with that, I'm out. Don't reply back or ask me back or anything to that matter unless you all want a REAL debate, and not some empty "I cant hear you, I can't hear you" game.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-20-2006 10:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-21-2006 2:12 PM kuresu has not replied

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