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Author Topic:   the intellectual enemies of freedom
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2 of 53 (356462)
10-14-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Syamsu
10-14-2006 7:55 AM


Day in day out, our knowledge about free behaviour is being destroyed by Darwinists.
That seems like a sweeping generalization.
So then the Darwinist conception of the human mind is computational(Pinker, Dawkins, Cosmides, Tooby etc. etc.). The mind is explained to be the operation of the brain-organ which was fashioned by natural selection to computate genesurvival-problems.
You paint with too broad a brush. Gould, Lewontin, Eldredge and many of their supporters strongly disagreed with the determinism of Dawkins, Maynard Smith et al. Disagreement over genetic determinism is a strong undercurrent in the arguments over punctuated equilibria.
Some suggested reading:
R. C. Lewontin and Steven Rose and Leon J. Kamin, "Not in our Genes", Pantheon Books 1984.
Niles Eldredge, "Reinventing Darwin: The Great Debate at the High Table of Evolutionary Theory", John Wiley & Sons 1995.
Steven Rose, "Lifelines: Biology Beyond Determinism", Oxford University Press 1998.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Syamsu, posted 10-14-2006 7:55 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 36 of 53 (357496)
10-19-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Syamsu
10-19-2006 1:10 PM


Re: Determinism and indeterminacy
Darwinists are destroying knowledge about choice. They either are, or they aren't.
Darwinists are haters of vanilla ice cream. They either are or they aren't.
Perhaps "Darwinists are destroying knowledge about choice" and "Darwinists are haters of vanilla ice cream" both say exactly the same thing.
Well what I "seem" to be saying is not the point huh. I make quite a specific argument there shouldn't be much seeming about it.
No, you have not made a specific argument. You have emitted a string of ASCII characters. By themselves, such characters are meaningless.
You presumably meant something when you wrote the OP. People reading your OP ascribe meaning to it. But there is always a question as to whether what you mean, as author, is the same as what the readers take it to mean.
There is a significant body of literature discussing "freedom". Based on the meaning of "freedom", as used in that literature, your assertions appear to be wrong. Several people have pointed this out to you. However, it is always possible that what you actually mean, and what people take you as meaning, are quite different.
The usual way to sort out disagreements over meaning, is through dialogue. Somebody explains their disagreement with your statement. You respond by giving arguments to support your statement. As this dialogue proceeds, the readers are able to tease out more of what is your intended meaning. However, it seems that you will have nothing to do with this process. Instead of defending your claim, you keep referring people back to your OP. But there is nothing in your OP that would help.
You leave the readers with little choice, but to shake their heads and wonder about your ability at rational discussion.
I'm off to refute my earlier assertion about vanilla ice cream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Syamsu, posted 10-19-2006 1:10 PM Syamsu has replied

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 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 10-19-2006 3:43 PM nwr has replied
 Message 38 by Omnivorous, posted 10-19-2006 3:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 40 of 53 (357511)
10-19-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Syamsu
10-19-2006 3:43 PM


Re: Determinism and indeterminacy
Ah you just don't like what I put at issue. You want to shroud this issue in a fog of philosophy.
No. I want you to engage more in dialogue. That's the way to mutual understanding. It might not lead to agreement, but at least people will better understand what you are claiming.
"Chance is the enemy of science" Richard Dawkins, The blind watchmaker.
Dawkins does not speak for all evolutionists, nor for all scientists.
See, open hostility to knowledge about free behaviour. Evidence in favor.
I see no hostility to knowledge in what Dawkins said. He undoubtedly disagrees with some of your views, but that does not make him hostile to knowledge.
"If time were wound back, and evolution run again, things would turn out differently" paraphrase Gould
See, evidence against the thesis that Darwinists destroy knowledge of free behaviour.
Gould is disagreeing with Dawkins. But the disagreement has nothing to do with the alleged destruction of knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 10-19-2006 3:43 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
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