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Author Topic:   How do we know?
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 46 of 88 (163910)
11-29-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hangdawg13
11-29-2004 11:50 AM


Re: Summary
Hangdawg sez,
quote:
Believing in an unquestionable truth is not delusion. Believing we fully understand that truth is a delusion.
So how do you know it's unquestionable truth unless you understand it? At least in the case of inductive reasoning, we have a tentative understanding of a phenomenon that will change as we receive more information. With faith, the believer only accepts information that reinforces his belief, and rejects anything that may cast the 'unquestionable truth' into question.
quote:
So when a believer says, "I know" this or that, try to understand his position. He believes so strongly that it is the same as knowing.
No, he believes so strongly it's the exact opposite of knowing. You're wrong that our 'presuppositions' are on equal footing: you assume that expecting support for a claim about knowledge is an unfair restriction on your boundless imaginaion. I can point to ways that the presuppositions of empirical evidential inquiry have actually expanded our understanding of the universe in which we live.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-29-2004 11:50 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-29-2004 5:56 PM MrHambre has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 57 of 88 (164100)
11-30-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hangdawg13
11-29-2004 5:56 PM


Smoke and Mirrors
Hangdawg,
Quit dodging. When I asked how you know something is unquestionable truth if you don't understand it, I wasn't quibbling over the term 'unquestionable.' If you want to call it 'absolute' truth, fine. The question remains: if you don't fully understand it, what basis do you have for considering it absolute truth? And if it's based solely on your subjective experience, how can it be 'absolute'?
When you claimed that if someone 'believes so strongly it's the same as knowing,' I challenged you. People believe all sorts of things, often quite strongly, but that doesn't make the proposition true. Does the fact that the members of the Heaven's Gate cult castrated themselves and committed suicide make it more plausible that the Hale-Bopp comet was in fact their spaceship? Believing something in the complete absence of objective evidence, just because it makes you feel good to believe it, does not constitute knowing.
You continue to praise the achievements of science, or at least admit that 'science is not a bad thing.' We offer these as persuasive evidence that the presuppositions underlying empirical evidential inquiry are in fact superior to the presupposition that completely subjective experience is a valid foundation for knowledge. But you can't have it both ways. You seem to want to avoid looking silly by agreeing that objectivity has a practical advantage in expanding our knowledge, but then you turn around and say that objectivity itself should be questioned.
Make up your mind. We have supported the argument that certain presuppositions are more practical and logically valid than others, so quit claiming that "it's all a matter of faith."
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-29-2004 5:56 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-30-2004 8:22 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
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