Does it take faith to accept evolution as truth?

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No, it takes no faith.

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That just isn't true jar. Everything in life pretty much takes faith.Sitting in a chair takes faith, that the chair is designed well enough not to break.To believe that evolution is perfectly valid without a flaw in evidence, in data gathering, in experimentation, and in theory however small or great is simply crazy.You not only demonstarte faith in every piece of data that is presented to you, but in the Originator himself.How can you rest total belief, deem something absolute truth, when that supposed truth is of man. As you know man is imperfect and mistakes, flaws, and wrong ideas are part of Man.This message has been edited by prophex, 01-13-2005 18:09 AM

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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Maybe for you, not for me. I decide based on examination, even if cursory, and past experience. There is no faith involved, rather it is a matter of decision based on evidence.

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Of course there is faith involved. One has to decide if the evidence is ample truth. So instead of putting faith in the chair or the chair's maker, you put it in the evidence of past experience. I see.

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Well, two things here. First, Evolution is about as close to fact as we are likely to ever see. Even if there are errors, and there have been many, the vast bulk of evidence is overwhelming.

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I didn't want to know about the evidence itself, (somehow you seem to slip it in) but the faith involved in believing that this evidence is truth.Again you rely on the evidence, faith is utilized here.

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Well, it doesn't matter if there are flaws in the evidence. That's the beauty of the scientific method. The TOE is not based on one piece of evidence or even a few pieces of evidence. Rather it's based on a vast body of evidence from a variety of disiplines.

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So what all the more faith needed in the people who discovered this evidence isn't there? I doubt the thought of flaw has come to your mind though.

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Again, not a problem. One of the key points in science is reproducibility. If others cannot duplicate the data gathering then the data is suspect. But again, those issues are rapidly caught under the scientific method so that no faith is required. Infact the whole system is based on the idea of doubt and cross checking as opposed to faith.

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So the accuracy of the evidence is something you are sure upon. This does not eliminate the dilemma it seems, of faith.

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Again, the system takes care of that. Before an experimant is accepted it must be reproduced by other, unaligned labs. No faith required.

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One thing I have learned from Science class in High School is that faith is a necessity. To believe that the scientist did not make a mistake in the experiment requires faith. Multiply that by how many did that same experiment ( reproduced ) and you will come to a great amount of faith required.

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Still no problem. The theory is constantly subject to revision. As errors are found, the theory is re-examined to find its weakness and revised as needed. Again, no faith required.

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Unless you, your self found these errors, or at that will find them, then you have used enormous amounts of faith to accept it at the time.

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Well, I have no idea who or what the Originatoris so I can't comment on that.

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Darwin, you know that guy who wrote "Origins...", thought it fit him well.You have used faith without being conscious of it.

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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You can keep saying that faith is involved but I assure you that is incorrect.

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Don't remove your own interjections.

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Again, I don't know who taught you science but I can say they didn't do a very good job.

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Please refrain from insulting, I know it's hard.

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But there is a big difference between faith and a decision based on experience and evidence.

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You're right, one needs faith rather in the evidence's validity.

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The whole purpose of the Scientific Method is to remove faith from the exercise. This is why you have the conditions of openness and reproducibility.

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Sure, but the fact is, humans conducting the experiment are usually far from flawless.This message has been edited by prophex, 01-13-2005 19:10 AM

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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That's right - why (lots of different) people don't repeat experiments lots of time I don't know. Hey here's an idea Creationists could reproduce the experiments and catch the errors and the frauds... oh wait...

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Funny, but sort of pointless.

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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No, you don't have to have faith in the Evidence. That's why no one relies on one sample. That's why you don't rely on one method.

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I don't see why this isn't getting to you, reliance on a sample of evidence is NECESSARY.If you did not "rely" on the evidence, there would be nothing to base the statement on. You may not rely on all of them, but if none are relied on then there is nothing there.

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Fortunately, when it comes to the TOE, we have a record of over 150 years of evidence, experiments, theories, methods and procedures. That's why with over 150 years of challenges, the TOE still stands.

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This is like the 3rd time you've said this. Not relevant.

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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Which is exactly why experiments of importance are expected to be replicated. Why the details are made available for review and critism by more than one person.

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Strengthening the evidence does not mean it is perfect.

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You have a better way? Spell it out in detail.

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You've missed it, I wasn't aiming for this, rather for jar to admit that he utilizes faith for his belief in Evolution.

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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Fortunately, when it comes to the TOE, we have a record of over 150 years of evidence, experiments, theories, methods and procedures. That's why with over 150 years of challenges, the TOE still stands.

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Sheesh, this is like the brainwashing in "1984".

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I did not say rely on a sample of the evidence, I said rely on one sample. Faith is removed because science uses multiple samples, multiple researchers, multiple protocols and procedures. There are built in checks to eliminate faith or even bias as a factor.

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What it comes down to really is that you seem to think that the multitudes of reseachers, scientists, and procedures are perfect. I agree though, through replication perfection may come close, I disagree in the fact that it in fact does become flawless in all cases. This makes your faith become visible, to me.

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

BTW, nice speedy replies This message has been edited by prophex, 01-14-2005 16:34 AM

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"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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But I don't expect it to be flawless. That is the nature of knowledge and science. It is not TRUTH and is not even concerned with TRUTH. It is attempting to explain what is seen and found. It is designed so that flaws are discovered and the system constantly improved.

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No FAITH.

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Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

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I've said it before, I believe you rest your trust in the evidence.Please stop with the "Fortunately,..." stuff? I already knew.

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The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

read jar's replies as done b4

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The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

See definintion in jar's reply.I have a bone to pick with you ned, why in your avatar are you not smiling???? Did you think it would look "Hip" or "cool" if you put on a face like Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry?????lol just kidding

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The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

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The whole point of the scientific method is to take trust out of the process. In the real world, you do not trust results. Instead, they mustbe replicated. And they have to be replicated by others, not just the same team. Instead of trust everything is based on verification.

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So you would say that you do not apply trust to the evidence? Rather observing and not really having an opinion?I don't know, it seems plain enough to me. Maybe this has gone far enough.

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The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

Sorry Ned, but remember Clint Eastwood is extremely cool!!!!!

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The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"