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Author Topic:   Does it take faith to accept evolution as truth?
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 161 (176371)
01-12-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by commike37
01-12-2005 6:10 PM


No, it takes no faith.
I don't think there is any doubt that evolution took place. There is simply way too much evidence out there.
Now that's evolution.
Let me try to deal with the Theory of Evolution. That's a second story. It is a theory to explain the facts that we see. As a theory is is certainly subject to change and revision as we discover new data.
So there is no leap of faith or faith involved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by commike37, posted 01-12-2005 6:10 PM commike37 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 6:05 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 161 (176680)
01-13-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
01-13-2005 6:05 PM


Re: ?
That just isn't true jar. Everything in life pretty much takes faith.
Well, let's examine your arguments.
Sitting in a chair takes faith, that the chair is designed well enough not to break.
Maybe for you, not for me. I decide based on examination, even if cursory, and past experience. There is no faith involved, rather it is a matter of decision based on evidence.
To believe that evolution is perfectly valid without a flaw in evidence, in data gathering, in experimentation, and in theory however small or great is simply crazy.
Well, two things here. First, Evolution is about as close to fact as we are likely to ever see. Even if there are errors, and there have been many, the vast bulk of evidence is overwhelming.
But you are also bringing in the issue of theory. That has nothing to do with evolution, the body of evidence. The Theory of Evolution is simply the best explanation we've found yet. Again, no faith is needed.
If you are speaking of the TOE then let's follow your reasoning.
You say
"To believe that evolution {assuming you mean the TOE} is perfectly valid without a flaw in evidence..."
Well, it doesn't matter if there are flaws in the evidence. That's the beauty of the scientific method. The TOE is not based on one piece of evidence or even a few pieces of evidence. Rather it's based on a vast body of evidence from a variety of disiplines.
...in data gathering...
Again, not a problem. One of the key points in science is reproducibility. If others cannot duplicate the data gathering then the data is suspect. But again, those issues are rapidly caught under the scientific method so that no faith is required. Infact the whole system is based on the idea of doubt and cross checking as opposed to faith.
...in experimentation...
Again, the system takes care of that. Before an experimant is accepted it must be reproduced by other, unaligned labs. No faith required.
...and in theory however small or great is simply crazy
Still no problem. The theory is constantly subject to revision. As errors are found, the theory is re-examined to find its weakness and revised as needed. Again, no faith required.
You not only demonstarte faith in every piece of data that is presented to you, but in the Originator himself.
Well, I have no idea who or what the Originatoris so I can't comment on that. But I don't see faith being involved. Instead, I see doubt being the guiding force, show me the byword.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 6:05 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 6:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 161 (176691)
01-13-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by joshua221
01-13-2005 6:52 PM


Re: ?
You can keep saying that faith is involved but I assure you that is incorrect.
But there is a big difference between faith and a decision based on experience and evidence.
Again, I don't know who taught you science but I can say they didn't do a very good job. The whole purpose of the Scientific Method is to remove faith from the exercise. This is why you have the conditions of openness and reproducibility.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 6:52 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 7:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 161 (176708)
01-13-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
01-13-2005 7:07 PM


Re: ?
You're right, one needs faith rather in the evidence's validity.
No, you don't have to have faith in the Evidence. That's why no one relies on one sample. That's why you don't rely on one method.
Sure, but the fact is, humans conducting the experiment are usually far from flawless.
Of course. That's a given. That's why there are procedures established as well as protocols. In addition, that is why the experiment must be duplicated by another team at another site.
Fortunately, when it comes to the TOE, we have a record of over 150 years of evidence, experiments, theories, methods and procedures. That's why with over 150 years of challenges, the TOE still stands.
No faith required.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 01-13-2005 7:07 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2005 4:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 161 (177047)
01-14-2005 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by joshua221
01-14-2005 4:19 PM


Re: ?
I don't see why this isn't getting to you, reliance on a sample of evidence is NECESSARY.
If you did not "rely" on the evidence, there would be nothing to base the statement on. You may not rely on all of them, but if none are relied on then there is nothing there.
I did not say rely on a sample of the evidence, I said rely on one sample. Faith is removed because science uses multiple samples, multiple researchers, multiple protocols and procedures. There are built in checks to eliminate faith or even bias as a factor.
Fortunately, when it comes to the TOE, we have a record of over 150 years of evidence, experiments, theories, methods and procedures. That's why with over 150 years of challenges, the TOE still stands.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2005 4:19 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2005 4:33 PM jar has replied
 Message 81 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2005 4:34 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 161 (177056)
01-14-2005 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by joshua221
01-14-2005 4:33 PM


Re: ?
What it comes down to really is that you seem to think that the multitudes of reseachers, scientists, and procedures are perfect.
No, I don't. I don't expect perfection.
I agree though, through replication perfection may come close, I disagree in the fact that it in fact does become flawless in all cases
But I don't expect it to be flawless. That is the nature of knowledge and science. It is not TRUTH and is not even concerned with TRUTH. It is attempting to explain what is seen and found. It is designed so that flaws are discovered and the system constantly improved.
No FAITH.
Fortunately, when it comes to the TOE, we have a record of over 150 years of evidence, experiments, theories, methods and procedures. That's why with over 150 years of challenges, the TOE still stands.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2005 4:33 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NosyNed, posted 01-14-2005 7:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 119 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2005 7:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 161 (177075)
01-14-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
01-14-2005 5:35 PM


Re: ?
Can you IM me about an unrelated issue?
Back on Topic.
Thank you, I think you may have done a much better job of explaining what I'm trying to say than this old brain is capable of.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 01-14-2005 5:35 PM Percy has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 161 (177136)
01-14-2005 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by NosyNed
01-14-2005 7:52 PM


Re: Define Faith?
Perhaps you should offer your precise definition too Jar.
Faith is a belief or acceptance of something which cannot be verified by independant observers or replicated. Faith is not based on verifiable evidence. One good example is GOD. I have faith in GOD, but there is no verifiable evidence to support that belief.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NosyNed, posted 01-14-2005 7:52 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 161 (177961)
01-17-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by joshua221
01-17-2005 7:59 PM


See, there's the problem.
I've said it before, I believe you rest your trust in the evidence.
You seem to base everything on belief and not on evidence. When you couple that with you not understanding the scientific method it makes communication difficult.
The whole point of the scientific method is to take trust out of the process. In the real world, you do not trust results. Instead, they mustbe replicated. And they have to be replicated by others, not just the same team. Instead of trust everything is based on verification.
No faith, no trust.
You pulled
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
from somewhere, most likely some dictionary. And while that might well be great when it comes some situations it's not applicable, one being the world of science. It's very true when it comes to religion and other things that have no proof or evidence. But it's not true, as I said, in science.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2005 7:59 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by joshua221, posted 01-18-2005 8:41 PM jar has not replied

  
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