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Author Topic:   Is talkorigins.org a propoganda site?
bernd
Member (Idle past 4007 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 23 of 301 (282898)
01-31-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
01-30-2006 11:37 PM


Re: talkorigins vs. bible.ca
By AdminNosy:

Please take this specific item to another thread or we will not get to point two. Thanks

Hello Randman,
Richardson criticizes in his article [1] the idea that all vertebrate pass through a virtual identical stage, which would hint at highly conserved developmental constraints. Instead he suggests that evolutionary mechanism can modify all embryonic stages, a concept which may help to explain macro evolutionary change:
In summary, evolution has produced a number of changes in the embryonic stages of vertebrates including:
1. Differences in body size
2. Differences in body plan (for example, the presence or
absence of paired limb buds)
3. Changes in the number of units in repeating series
such as the somites and pharyngeal arches
4. Changes in the pattern of growth of different fields
(allometry)
5. Changes in the timing of development of different
fields (heterochrony)
These modifications of embryonic development are difficult to reconcile with the idea that most or all vertebrate clades pass through an embryonic stage that is highly resistant to evolutionary change. This idea is implicit in Haeckel’s drawings, which have been used to substantiate two quite distinct claims. First, that differences between species typically become more apparent at late stages. Second, that vertebrate embryos are virtually identical at earlier stages. This first claim is clearly true. Our survey, however, does not support the second claim, and instead reveals considerable variability - and evolutionary lability - of the tailbud stage, the purported phylotypic stage of vertebrates. We suggest that not all developmental mechanisms are highly constrained by conserved developmental mechanisms such as the zootype. Embryonic stages may be key targets for macro evolutionary change
Myers does not claim that all developmental mechanism are highly constrained by conserved developmental mechanism nor that the “phylotypic stage” is virtual identical in all vertebrates. He states in [2]:
Modern theories of development and evolution propose something that fits the observations, and that Wells cannot easily dismiss. Genes can be modified to act at virtually any point in development, so the theoretical constraint imposed by Haeckel is nonexistent. Variations between species at the earliest stages were a problem for Haeckel, but are not incompatible at all with modern developmental biology. There isn't even a requirement for absolute morphological identity at the phylotypic stage. As Wells points out, Michael Richardson has been identifying variation within that stage between species.
The main difference seems to be one of terminology, that is whether the expression “phylotypic stage” should be replaced for example by “phylotypic period” as Richardson suggests in [3]. Richardson’s proposal is - as far as I know - still under debate, therefore I wouldn’t criticize Myers for using the former term.
-Bernd

References
[1] MK Rich Ardson - MK Blog Rich
[2] Wells and Haeckel's Embryos
[3] MK Rich Ardson - MK Blog Rich
This message has been edited by bernd, 31-Jan-2006 07:17 PM
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 01-31-2006 01:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 11:37 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:21 PM bernd has replied

bernd
Member (Idle past 4007 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 38 of 301 (284462)
02-06-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
02-05-2006 6:21 PM


Re: talkorigins vs. bible.ca
Hello Randman,
maybe I didn't formulate clear enough. I'll try again. I claim that there is no substantial difference between Richardson's and Myer's position on the phylolotypic stage: that is, leaving aside terminology, they talk about the same concept. Specifically they agree on the following points:
  • At the phylotypic stage vertebrates share common features like
    somites, neural tube, optic anlagen, notochord and pharyngeal pouches.
  • Variation has been demonstrated within this stage between species
  • Genes can be modified to act at virtually any point in development
(For support of this statements have a look at the quotes provide in [1] and in the following post of Modulous [2] )
This would invalidate your claim that talkorigin uses the concept of a highly conserved stage in vertebrate development. Therefore at least this point doesn't seem to help your idea that talkorigin is a propaganda site.
In the probable case you don't agree, please explain in some detail where Myer differs from Richardson with respect to the phylotypic stage. (I would propose to continue this part of the discussion in the following thread I opened responding to a request of AdminNosy [3] ).
-Bernd
P.S.
Please note this thread [4] which is intended to focus on the revision of Richardson's ideas about Haeckel's theory (and drawings) he formulated 1997.

References
[1]Message 23
[2]Message 30
[3]Message 1
[4]Message 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 02-06-2006 6:12 PM bernd has not replied

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