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Author Topic:   Considerations of Christ's Resurrection
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 33 (69087)
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


Christianity begins with the claim of a miracle - the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The author of more than two thirds of the N.T. - Paul the Apostle says that if Christ be not risen we are liars.
Yes, indeed, there are only two options: We christians are liars or we are telling the plain truth - there is nothing in between.
The N.T. says God will provide ONE sign - the sign of the prophet Jonah, which Jesus interpreted as being His death and resurrection. If Jesus rose from the dead then this miracle is the greatest event in history.
First of all, if you do not believe Jesus lived then it is irrelevant to debate if He rose from the dead. Roman historian Tacitis admits He lived. We must assume that Jesus lived and that He died or this debate is pointless.
Anyway, to those who can assume the necessary facts to have this debate read on please.
The entire case for the resurrection stands or falls on the veracity of the eyewitnesses - the Apostles. Did they tell the truth or did they make the whole thing up ?
There are a lot of sources of information about the Apostles - a lot, and in these sources there is one common denominator, which is that all of the Apostles died believing and maintaining that Jesus was alive that He rose from the dead. Of all the sources available about the lives of the Apostles not a one of them ever even suggests that they did not die for the testimony of the risen Christ.
The best scholarship agrees that Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas offers the single greatest piece of evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
All of the sources about the Apostles and their deaths are in complete agreement : They all died a horrible martyrs death, and they died ALONE.
Thomas Aquinas says it is INCONCEIVABLE that each of the Apostles would die alone in a remote part of the world for a lie.
If together in any amout of 2 or more it is plausible that they would maintain the lie, but that wasn't the case. They each died a horrible martyrs death alone for the testimony that Jesus rose.
In each case all they had to do was recant and be let go and their fellow apostles would never know they recanted. Obviously N.T. times had no modern communication abilities. If one apostle were to falter under the threat of death and recant none of the others would ever find out. But this is not the case history records that the Apostles died alone and each died a horrible martyrs death - ALL FOR A LIE ?
Nobody is going to die a martyrs death alone for a lie especially with the escape hatch of recanting available. This is what history records in unison about the Apostles of Jesus.
The Apostles told the truth, they were honest eyewitnesses of the risen Christ and they reported what they saw.
The veracity of the witnesses is confirmed by the circumstances in which they died.
How does any of this evidence creationism ?
Before Jesus died He predicted His death and resurrection which if true validates as true everything else He said.
Jesus said " All authority in heaven and earth is given unto Me". Paul said that Jesus existed eternally that He was the speaking agent by which God spoke the universe into existence..."universe be"....universe was, and there you have the first cause.
P.S. Please spare me any slanderous Jesus Seminar arguments. The J.S. are dishonest atheists posing as honest scholars, and don't accuse me of saying all atheists are dishonest - I didn't say that. And please keep the non seqiutors to a minimun.
Sources of Information : the teaching of Dr.Gene Scott PhD Stanford University {Pastor Melissa Scott presents Dr. Gene Scott - The Official Site}

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-24-2003 9:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 3 by Eta_Carinae, posted 11-24-2003 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 4 by Eta_Carinae, posted 11-24-2003 10:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 5 by Asgara, posted 11-24-2003 10:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 11-24-2003 10:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 8 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-24-2003 10:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 9 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-25-2003 7:09 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 26 by :æ:, posted 11-26-2003 6:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 33 (69091)
11-24-2003 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


quote:
Yes, indeed, there are only two options: We christians are liars or we are telling the plain truth - there is nothing in between.
1) Being wrong is not the same as lying.
2) Why is that? Some things Christians say could be true, while others are wrong.
But moving on...
quote:
The entire case for the resurrection stands or falls on the veracity of the eyewitnesses - the Apostles.
Okay. Compare and contrast their accounts of the resurrection. Who was at the tomb, and what were the order of events surrounding the resurrection?
If the veracity of their accounts is all-important, we should hope that their accounts don't contradict one another, right?
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:27 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 3 of 33 (69094)
11-24-2003 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


What has this to do with Creationism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-25-2003 8:02 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:16 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 4 of 33 (69096)
11-24-2003 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


How are the Jesus Seminar people atheists?
They seem to have a wide spectrum of academics, both Christian (representing several denominations) and non-Christian.
Oh, let me guess, since they are not rabid fundamentalists you consider them atheists.
Way to go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:12 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 5 of 33 (69102)
11-24-2003 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


Hello Willowtree,
Tacitus wrote his Annuls after 100ce. All he reports is that there were a group of people called Christians and they believed in a leader named Christus.
Aquinas wasn't even born until after 1200ce. What kind of witness to events he is, I can't fathom.
They all died a horrible martyrs death, and they died ALONE.
Where do you get your information on the deaths of the apostles? Most of what I find lists heresay;
John the Baptist - died at the whim of a woman, nothing to do with his faith {bible}
Simon/Peter - MAY have died in either 64ce during Nero's reign or 67ce {no reference}
Andrew - tradition says crucified in Patras
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 11-24-2003 10:44 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 33 (69103)
11-24-2003 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


hhmm double post and only half posted ...
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 11-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 7 of 33 (69104)
11-24-2003 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Asgara
11-24-2003 10:37 PM


hopefully here is the rest of my post:
James son of Zebedee - executed by Herod {bible}
John son of Zebedee - banished to Patmos during the reign of either Emperor Nero (AD54-68) or Domitian (AD81-96), died a natural death at Ephesus c AD100 {no reference}
Philip - either died or was martyred in Hieropolis {no reference}
Bartholomew - Traditionally he met his death by being either flayed or skinned alive or beheaded, in either Derbent, on the Caspian Sea or somewhere in India (no reference)
Thomas Didymus - speared to death near Madras (no reference)
Matthew Levi - possibly killed in either Ethiopia OR Persia {no reference}
James son of Alphaeus - tradition claims death in Egypt {no reference}
Jude - possibly killed with Simon in Persia {no reference}
Simon - tradition says either crucified or hacked to death in Persia {no reference}
Judas - conflicting stories on purchase of pauper's field {bible} {no other reference}
Matthias - no references anywhere after being chosen to replace Judas {bible}
Paul - possibly executed under Nero, possibly aquitted and set free for another three years, before being rearrested and executed - {no reference other than bible, }
Only two apostle's deaths were mentioned in the bible, three of them aren't even covered "in tradition".
If anyone has anything more than "tradition" that shows the deaths of the apostles, I would be interested in reading it.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 33 (69105)
11-24-2003 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


Think about the 9-11 terror attacks. The terrorist honesty believed that they were going to go to heaven with 100 women waiting for them if they killed themselves and as many people as they could. But, just because they believe something doesn't mean that what they believe is right.
It is like me saying that I am going to kill myself becuase a pink unicorn told me to. Now, does the fact that I am willing to kill myself make the pink unicorn story real?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4457 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 9 of 33 (69155)
11-25-2003 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


Creationism - the idea that the events portrayed in the bible, particularly in Genesis, are 100% factual and scientific evidence must support it.
quote:
Before Jesus died He predicted His death and resurrection which if true validates as true everything else He said.
Indeed. But Genesis is a part of the Old Testement, and way before his time. He said nothing about it - how can it be validated then?
BTW I'll be really suprised if I get a response...
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-24-2003 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 33 (69272)
11-25-2003 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by IrishRockhound
11-25-2003 7:09 AM


Reply to Irish
Irish : Please re - read the last section of my topic, in it you will find that I answered your question. Paul the Apostle in the N.T. said that Christ existed eternally , that He is part of the Godhead, that when God created the universe He spoke through the Son when He actually did it. This also gets into the the trinity debate of which I do not want to get in to, however I am a protestant christian and we do believe that Jesus always existed - that is basic christianity doctrine. If Jesus rose IF that is , then His statemment that all authority in heaven and earth given unto Him makes Him God, the O.T. and its revelation of the law of God was a shadow , a type of the substance that cast the shadow which was Jesus. God killed the law when Christ died and exalted His Son as His promised reward for securing redemption for those who resond to it. Thank You.

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 11 of 33 (69276)
11-25-2003 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eta_Carinae
11-24-2003 10:07 PM


Just a re-run
quote:
What has this to do with Creationism?
Adminnemooseus
------------------
Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
too fast closure of threads

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 33 (69278)
11-25-2003 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Eta_Carinae
11-24-2003 10:12 PM


Reply to Eta
Eta : You just assume me a fundementalist - I am not. A fundie is the bad element in any given good. My mind is wide open and I know how to listen. I always agree to disagree, and I can respect what anyone says as long as they can tell me what they believe and why they believe it.
The Jesus Seminar are a body of dishonest scholars using their educational credentials to legitimize a fraudelent destruction of the basic doctrines of the Church. It doesn't matter what they claim they are , they are christian hating atheists who want to mainstream a fallacy, a fallacy that simply declares Jesus never said 90% of what He said, and their entire basis for this dishonest claim is because of their previously held beliefs that miracles do not exist, that the divine does not exist. Christianity begins with the claim of a miracle - the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus. The J.S. do not believe that miracles exist or happen and they will not even entertain the idea or look at the evidence. Therefore how objective and fair can a group of pseudo- scholars be to a religion that bases its entire existence on a miracle ? The J.S. create a Jesus who never existed for the one purpose of slandering the Church that they hate.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 33 (69281)
11-25-2003 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eta_Carinae
11-24-2003 10:07 PM


Towards the end of my topic I posed the very question "How does any of this evidence creationism ? " Then I answered the question, did you some how miss it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Eta_Carinae, posted 11-24-2003 10:07 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 14 of 33 (69284)
11-25-2003 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dan Carroll
11-24-2003 9:57 PM


OK lets just assume one apostle or disciple says there were 4 women at the tomb, and another says there were 3, or maybe one says he saw Jesus in Jerusalem and another says he didnt, but the message was that He would meet them in Galilee, none of this has nothing to do with the subject of my topic and the central claim that Jesus rose from the dead. None of the parties involved ever disputed that He rose from the day of Pentecost on. If they were wrong then it still doesn't explain how all of them could be wrong and die alone for something that didn't happen. Thank You.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-24-2003 9:57 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 8:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 33 (69289)
11-25-2003 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 8:27 PM


1) It's a little more drastic than one says there were three women and another says there were four. The way in which the accounts are structured causes them to directly contradict one another. At least three of the four must be lying, or at least mistaken.
2) It has everything to do with your post. You said that the credibility of the apostles was central to Christianity. Your exact words were "the veracity of the eyewitnesses". If that veracity is in question because at least three of the four eyewitnesses are telling untrue stories, then what does that say?
3) You seem to be basing your argument solely on the idea that no one would die for an untruth. But given that at least three of the four men did die for an untruth, that would seem to rule that out as an argument.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 9:08 PM Dan Carroll has replied

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