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Author Topic:   Considerations of Christ's Resurrection
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 33 (69298)
11-25-2003 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dan Carroll
11-25-2003 8:42 PM


Negative, you are the one saying some died for an "untruth" The whole point and intent of the evidence I offered says they died telling the truth of what they saw -the risen Christ.
There are NO contradictions in the resurrection passages , if you think there are you are mistaken and need to listen to someone in the know. If you want list one of them and we will debate it. Glad to read your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 8:42 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Asgara, posted 11-25-2003 9:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 18 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 10:06 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 28 by Asgara, posted 11-26-2003 7:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 17 of 33 (69304)
11-25-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 9:08 PM


Willow,
Which account is the truth then?
Matt 28 - Mary M. and Mary mother of James
angel descended and rolled away the stone and sat on it
talked to the two women
women ran to tell the disciples
Jesus met them as they went
Mark 16 - Mary M, Mary mother of James and Salome
stone already rolled away
inside was young man
they ran away and said nothing to anyone
JC appeared 1st to Mary M
then two more
then the 11
Luke 24 - no names listed in beginning
stone already rolled away
inside were two men
they told the 11
lists Mary M, Mary mother of James and Joanna and
others who were there
Peter went to see for himself
Jesus appeared to two, Cleopas and another
John 20/21 - still dark
Mary M
stone already rolled away
didn't look, ran to tell Simon and the disciple
that Jesus loved
They went to look and saw no one there
Mary M stayed and saw two angels
she turned and saw Jesus
told the disciples
that evening Jesus appeared to the disciples together
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 9:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (69315)
11-25-2003 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 9:08 PM


(EDIT: Gawdammit, I spend half an hour compiling the contradiction list of doom, and the damn queen beats me too it. )
quote:
There are NO contradictions in the resurrection passages , if you think there are you are mistaken and need to listen to someone in the know.
Mm.
How many women came to the tomb?
Matthew: 2
Mark: 3
Luke: 5 or more
John: 1
When did they arrive?
Matthew: sunrise
Mark: sunrise
John: still dark out
When they arrived, was the tomb open or closed?
Matthew: Closed
Luke: Open
What did the women see at the tomb?
Matthew: One angel
Mark: A young man
Luke: Two men
John: Two angels
Were the men (or angels, as the case may be) inside the tomb when the women arrived?
Matthew: Outside
Mark: Inside
Luke: Inside
John: Inside
Did the women go to tell the disciples?
Matthew: They immediately ran to tell the disciples
Mark: They didn't tell anyone; they were too afraid
Luke: They immediately ran to tell the disciples
To whom did Jesus first appear after his resurrection?
Matthew: The two Marys
Mark: Only Mary Magdalene
Luke: Cleopas and another
John: Only Mary Magdalene
Did Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus?
Matthew: Yes, immediately
Luke: Jesus didn't appear to her at all; a vision of angels told her he was still alive
John: She knew not that it was Jesus
Where did Jesus tell his disciples to go after the resurrection?
Matthew: Galilee
Mark: Galilee
Luke: Jerusalem
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples after his resurrection?
Matthew: On a mountaintop in Galilee
Mark: In a room in Jerusalem
Luke: In a room in Jerusalem
John: In a room in Jerusalem
How many disciples were present for this meeting?
Matthew: 11
Mark: 11
Luke: 11
John: 10
So to sum up, the contradictions in the story of the resurrection include who saw it, when they saw it, whether or not there was a big thumping rock in the way when they saw it, who else was there, whether the other people were angels or just dudes, whether these angel/dudes entered the tomb or not, whether or not the people who saw it told anyone, who Jesus first spoke to after being resurrected, whether or not Mary even recognized him, whether or not Mary even saw him, what instructions Jesus gave his disciples upon returning, where the disciples saw him for the first time after his resurrection, and how many of the disciples were there when Jesus appeared.
Those last few particularly shady. I mean... people remember where they were when Kennedy was shot, you'd think people would remember where they were when Jesus rose from the grave. Or at least who else was there, and the gist of what Jesus said.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 9:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 19 of 33 (69324)
11-25-2003 10:21 PM


Topic born off-topic
Strangly enough, almost all the participents, including the originator, seem oblivious to the title of this topic.
Closing it down.
Adminnemooseus
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Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 20 of 33 (69336)
11-25-2003 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 10:21 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
quote:
In fairness, I think Willowtree's intention all along had been to discuss the resurrection. The flaw in the thread seemed to have been a poor choice of titles, rather than topic drift.
Per Dan's above quoted comments at the "Closed Too Fast" topic, I have renamed this topic from "Some Evidence For Creationism" to "Considerations of Christ's Resurrection".
Topic re-opened.
Cheers,
Adminnemooseus
------------------
Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
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[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-26-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-26-2003 5:51 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 33 (69443)
11-26-2003 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 11:59 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
Why are you arbitrarily re-naming my topic and who is Dan and if he is doing me a favor why am I not happy ?
Towards the end of my topic I said "How does any of this evidence Creationism" and then I proceeded to answer that very question, did you miss it, you must of because your unjustified censorship is negating my entire point. I deserve an answer. W.T.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-25-2003 11:59 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 22 of 33 (69445)
11-26-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 10:21 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
What makes you think the originator agrees with you ? I do not. This is so infuriating , did you bother to read what I said in my topic , that part where I say "How does any of this evidence creationism ?" I then proceeded to answer that rhetorical question. My entire point is to evidence creationism which I did. You either missed it or you so disagree with my point/evidence that you have decided to gut my entire master point. I do not understand what is going on here. If Jesus rose then this makes Him God and the creating agent that the Father used to speak the world into existence - this is what I said in my topic in diifferent words so how do you not understand that this is evidence for creationism ? I cant stop you from re-naming my topic but if this stands then this is pure unjustified censorship done under the guise of enforcing some loose subjective rules. W.T.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-25-2003 10:21 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rei, posted 11-26-2003 6:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 23 of 33 (69446)
11-26-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object
11-26-2003 5:51 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
I just read over all the posts here WT. If creationism is taken as the idea that science must support the literal word of the bible then I don't see any connection between any of what you posted and that area of discussion.
Could you clear it up?
You seem to suggest something like this reasoning:
1) If Christ was actually resurrected then everything he says is true.
2) He indirectly supports the old testament.
3) Therefore the old testament must be true too.
4) This makes support for the resurrections support for a literal interpretation of Genesis.
Is that the connection?
That is so very tenuous that I don't see it really being tied to "creationism" as we know it here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-26-2003 5:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 24 of 33 (69449)
11-26-2003 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Cold Foreign Object
11-26-2003 6:04 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
Willowtree,
First off, please be calm, relaxed, and Smile. Ok, that's better.
This is a moderated discussion board. However, the admins are usually fairly nice, and do minimal moderation. This typically involves shutting down a thread if it strays too far off topic, forcing people to have to open up new - more on-topic threads.
Since the discussion had been focusing on Christ's resurrection - not the connection of Christ's resurrection to creationism - it was shut down. However, Dan pointed what the conversation had been mostly about, and the title was consequently changed. Your initial post was not changed at all - only the title. It seems strange that you would consider changing the title to what people were discussing as "censorship". The admins were trying to do you a favor so that they wouldn't have to shut this thread down to force people back on topic; it's a shame that you were offended by it. But they really meant well.
Now, your claim is that the penultimate point that you were going for, with all of the discussion of Christ, is that his resurrection is related to creationism. I don't think anyone has followed how you come to this conclusion; your post was a bit too vague for most of us. Please feel free to elaborate as to how this evidences creationism, as opposed to evolution.
Remember that creationism and evolution have nothing to do with the formation of this universe - only whether life itself was created as it currently is, or developed from earlier forms of life. It also does not include whether abiogenesis occurred or not (virtually all creationists believe it didn't, but only some evolutionists believe that it did; the others are mostly "theistic evolutionists").
P.S. - You're young, aren't you? 16 or so, perhaps? (please don't take this as an insult if I'm off on this one);
P.P.S. - Stay calm, and realize that when other people comment, they're not doing it to insult you, but just to get a calm back-and-forth debate going. It helps educate both sides. If you do, you'll have a lot more fun - you'll learn, and we'll learn too.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-26-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-26-2003 6:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 25 of 33 (69450)
11-26-2003 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object
11-26-2003 5:51 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
I agree with Ned, in message 23.
quote:
...who is Dan and if he is doing me a favor why am I not happy?
Dan got your topic reopened. Since you are pushing the issue of why you are not happy, my response must be, that seems to be because you are confused.
Adminnemooseus
------------------
Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
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This message is a reply to:
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:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 26 of 33 (69456)
11-26-2003 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


WILLOWTREE writes:
Yes, indeed, there are only two options: We christians are liars or we are telling the plain truth - there is nothing in between.
Sure there is something in between: Christians are mistaken. Mistaken people aren't liars.
WILLOWTREE writes:
All of the sources about the Apostles and their deaths are in complete agreement : They all died a horrible martyrs death, and they died ALONE.
Please feel free to clothe your naked assertion with at least a few garments of supporting evidence at anytime.
WILLOWTREE writes:
In each case all they had to do was recant and be let go and their fellow apostles would never know they recanted.
You will need to demonstrate that at the time of the apostle's death, his life would have been spared by recanting. Otherwise the point is irrelevant. In my time on internet fora, I've presented this challenge to more Christians than I care to count, and to date none has presented any such demonstration.
Of course, you could always try to be the first...
WILLOWTREE writes:
Before Jesus died He predicted His death and resurrection which if true validates as true everything else He said.
No, it doesn't. Jesus' resurrection could be an elaborate trick played on Christians by Loki, the Norse god of mischeif, in order to make you come to the irrational conclusion you just stated.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 33 (69463)
11-26-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rei
11-26-2003 6:20 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
How many times now has some bleephole tried to convince me that some favor is being done . Have you graduated college ? And have you ever taken a course on listening or are you an expert in dishing out non sequitors ? When will someone acknowledge that my topic said the following sentence "How does any of this evidence creationism ?" Then I answered that very question. Now it seems the truth is creeping out, that a mob of atheists/darwinists are practicing the fine art of fundementalist scientism censorship. Why can't you dishonest humans posing as open minded intellectuals just say we cannot tolerate what you are arguing. No, instead you intentionally change the shape of the problem to be something that doesn't exist. I do not agree with anything you say and you are no different than Jerry Falwell - you are the bad element in any given good. You have censored out my master point that is not a matter of opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2003 7:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 31 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-26-2003 7:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 28 of 33 (69466)
11-26-2003 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 9:08 PM


Willow,
I would appreciate some feedback on my post #17, and Dan's post #18.
Also, some feedback on my posts #5 and #7. I have heard stories concerning the deaths of the apostles for many years, but the only information I could actually find on this issue talks of "traditionally" or "it is said" or has too many questions concerning what, when, and where. If anyone has any actual historic references to these events I would appreciate reading them.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 9:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 33 (69467)
11-26-2003 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object
11-26-2003 7:07 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
a mob of atheists/darwinists are practicing the fine art of fundementalist scientism censorship.
Quit being an a**. Read the thread. All the messages, including yours, are still here. The only changes have been trivial and cosmetic. Just carry on the conversation.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 33 (69469)
11-26-2003 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chiroptera
11-26-2003 7:14 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
No the changes are not trivial , the renaming of my topic decapitates the whole reason I wrote it . This is not a matter of opinion, once again another person is defending the indefensible. Thank you for rationalizing censorship that is completely unwarranted. Now I know that this site is controlled by atheists/darwinists - now I know.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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