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Author Topic:   Ground Rules
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 31 of 68 (513783)
07-01-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by InGodITrust
07-01-2009 1:39 PM


And then I was overcome with an indescribable feeling of love. This rapture blindsided me, and lasted a few minutes, and it was a defining event in my life.

No doubt your did experience that. How did you decide that the prayer produced it, rather than some internal process triggered by seeing the fellow pray?

Religious folk need to realize that these experiences cut no ice with non-believers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by InGodITrust, posted 07-01-2009 1:39 PM InGodITrust has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2796 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 32 of 68 (513809)
07-01-2009 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by InGodITrust
07-01-2009 1:39 PM


Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
This rapture blindsided me, and lasted a few minutes, and it was a defining event in my life.
What blind-sided you was the Jesus freak's holy water was actually amyl nitrate desolved in DMSO.

One can't make a valid conclusion without knowing the possibilities.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 33 of 68 (513811)
07-01-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by lyx2no
07-01-2009 5:40 PM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
I know a guy that found Jesus through Ketamine

I keep trying to explain to him that his experiences can be very easily scientifically explained, but then again you can't explain things to people that feel they have experienced god.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 34 of 68 (513901)
07-02-2009 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Theodoric
07-01-2009 5:46 PM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
This is beginning to approach the idea "if a tree fell in the forest with no one to witness it, did it make a sound?" Since it didn't affect anyone, belief in the sound begins to approach belief in the FSM. I have heard of people who believe that once other people leave their sight, they cease to exist. At the moment, aliens do not exist. Belief in aliens makes as much sense as belief in the FSM. If Aliens show up, do they then suddenly start to exist? Just because you have no evidence currently, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2009 5:46 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 35 of 68 (513907)
07-02-2009 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by greentwiga
07-02-2009 11:48 AM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
Just because you have no evidence currently, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sure, but it would be foolish to believe in something without evidence, for then you would be obliged to believe in anything you, or anyone else, happened to imagine.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 68 (513936)
07-02-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Woodsy
07-02-2009 11:55 AM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
Woodsy writes:

Sure, but it would be foolish to believe in something without evidence

Is that so?

Do me a favor, there is another atheist on this site named onifre.

Send him a PM with the above quote. Why? Well a couple of weeks ago he said he had 2 daughters. I asked him to give me independent objective verifiable scientific evidence of that. He answered 3 times but provided no evidence.

My question went over his head, and he got pissed. He never did figure out atheists like himself and you BELIEVE many things you have no evidence for. Never notice it in yourselves, but you sure do like to point it out in people who have religious beliefs,and belittle them.

Make sure you tell onifre he is foolish to run his life on the BELIEF those daughters are his.

How about you? Show me your stratagrahic and sedimentation evidence that there was no world wide flood. Make sure you tell me where you have mapped and measured sections to come to this conclusion.Don't use anyone else's work or papers.

Or do you just BELIEVE what geologists like me tell you?

WOW, you are so much different than someone who read the bible and believed it.

Makes me want to become an atheist right now......that way I can act superior while in fact I don't have a clue as to how I actually think.

Edited by petrophysics1, : typo


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Perdition, posted 07-02-2009 3:44 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded
 Message 39 by onifre, posted 07-02-2009 8:56 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 68 (513939)
07-02-2009 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by petrophysics1
07-02-2009 3:12 PM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
The thing is that Woodsy could take a degree in geology and do all that you suggest and would arrive at conclusions that are most likely in keeping with the current the state of the art.

He could use his knowledge to verify what he was told directly.

That's what research is.

You can't verify faith: big difference.


This message is a reply to:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1318 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 38 of 68 (513941)
07-02-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by petrophysics1
07-02-2009 3:12 PM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
Someone telling you something is evidence. The thing is, is it enough evidence to believe the claim at hand? If it's a mundane thing that won't change much in the grand scheme of your life and the person telling you is trustworthy, then sure, go ahead and trust the person. When it comes to the big things, like a god, that will inevitably change your life in some significant way, it takes just a little more than someone saying "Trust me."

Make sure you tell onifre he is foolish to run his life on the BELIEF those daughters are his.

I'm fairly sure he has evidence. Did he have sex with the mother approximately 9 months before the child was born? Did the mother agree that the child is his? Does the mother have a history of being honest on such things? Do the children look like him in any way?

He's got all kinds of evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by petrophysics1, posted 07-02-2009 3:12 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 39 of 68 (513961)
07-02-2009 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by petrophysics1
07-02-2009 3:12 PM


seek and destroy
There you are...and I see once again you bring my daughters up.

Send him a PM with the above quote. Why? Well a couple of weeks ago he said he had 2 daughters. I asked him to give me independent objective verifiable scientific evidence of that. He answered 3 times but provided no evidence.

I never answered to prove to you that my daughters were mine. My replies were basically to tell you to go fuck yourself for bringing them up and questioning my lifestyle - which you know absolutely nothing about.

My second post was also concerning my lifestyle and the 3rd post was to tell you that your lame friend got worked over like an idiot.

I have no need to prove to you that my daughters are mine.

Are you actually trying to equate me believing my daughters are mine to the belief in God? - in the words of George Carlin "what are you fuck'n stupid?"

My question went over his head, and he got pissed.

No it didn't. But that doesn't mean that I had to answer anything specific, nor were those your actual intentions. Your intentions were to call me out for the lifestyle you thought I lived. And trust me, I didn't get pissed, that's how I normally address pathetic assholes.

He never did figure out atheists like himself and you BELIEVE many things you have no evidence for.

And again, you have no idea what evidence I have, you are just being an ignorant fool.

Make sure you tell onifre he is foolish to run his life on the BELIEF those daughters are his.

Why don't you man up and respond to me, and stop being such a pussy by sending others to do the work for you.

You have 3 unanswered post in the other thread, and now this one. I'm here, say what you gotta say.

In fact, I'll tell you what, here's another pic Me and the girls, do you not see the similarities?

Now, you show me a picture of God...:laugh:

- Oni


Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by petrophysics1, posted 07-02-2009 3:12 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-02-2009 9:14 PM onifre has responded
 Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 07-03-2009 2:38 AM onifre has responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 40 of 68 (513963)
07-02-2009 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by onifre
07-02-2009 8:56 PM


Re: seek and destroy
Onfire writes:

In fact, I'll tell you what, here's another pic Me and the girls, do you not see the similarities?

Sorry, no, your girls are much better looking :P


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by onifre, posted 07-02-2009 8:56 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 07-02-2009 9:21 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 41 of 68 (513964)
07-02-2009 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by DevilsAdvocate
07-02-2009 9:14 PM


Re: seek and destroy
Sorry, no, your girls are much better looking :P

:laugh:, I can't argue with that.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-02-2009 9:14 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 42 of 68 (513965)
07-02-2009 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Woodsy
07-02-2009 11:55 AM


more bad logic
Sorry Woodsy, but this is a fallacy:

Sure, but it would be foolish to believe in something without evidence, for then you would be obliged to believe in anything you, or anyone else, happened to imagine.

So because I like green, but have no reason to prefer green over pink, no evidence that green is superior to pink or any other color, I should still be compelled to like pink?

No, what it means is that I can't criticize anyone for liking pink.

Now, I'd agree that if I try to convince you that green is superior to pink, it means that then you can question why you should consider it over pink.

You are free to acknowledge my preference for green, you are free to express your personal opinion on what color you like, but you cannot say that my preference for green is foolish because I don't like pink equally.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1267 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 43 of 68 (513974)
07-02-2009 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
07-02-2009 9:23 PM


Re: more bad logic
Here we go again.

Sorry Woodsy, but this is a fallacy:

What fallacy, specifically, RAZD?

quote:
Sure, but it would be foolish to believe in something without evidence, for then you would be obliged to believe in anything you, or anyone else, happened to imagine.

So because I like green, but have no reason to prefer green over pink, no evidence that green is superior to pink or any other color, I should still be compelled to like pink?

No, what it means is that I can't criticize anyone for liking pink.

Now, I'd agree that if I try to convince you that green is superior to pink, it means that then you can question why you should consider it over pink.

You are free to acknowledge my preference for green, you are free to express your personal opinion on what color you like, but you cannot say that my preference for green is foolish because I don't like pink equally.

Enjoy.

A belief that something exists in objective reality != subjective preference. Or do you believe that other beliefs regarding objective reality (my pet is a cat, the Earth is round, etc) are similarly arbitrary, and a person may believe in whatever they like regardless of evidence and it is equally rational?

True, a person who holds one arbitrary unsupported belief is not compelled to hold all other arbitrary beliefs, but holding one and not others despite equivalent levels of evidence (ie, none) is inconsistent. It's special pleading - which is a logical fallacy.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 44 of 68 (513980)
07-03-2009 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by greentwiga
07-02-2009 11:48 AM


Re: Come to Jesus, Garlic Breath
WTF?

So if there is no evidence against it I should therefore believe in everything and anything?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 45 of 68 (513981)
07-03-2009 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
06-30-2009 8:28 AM


Hyroglyphx responds to me:

quote:
The first Colonials established the colonies so they can run a theocracy? Please verify this.

This is basic history. Go look it up. I don't happen to have my 10th grade American History book with me. One of the big themes of the Puritan religion was that god was the controller of all life. This is where the concept of "Puritanical" meaning a strict, religious moral code encompassing all areas of life comes from.

Have you not seen the original charters of some of the colonies and their restrictions on religious practice? Again, the Quakers were run out of Massachusetts on threat of death. Look up the history of Mary Dyer and the Boston martyrs.

quote:
If they did it was most likely either British citizens loyal to the king or Colonists who held Anglican religious views.

Incorrect. They were the American colonists. The laws in Massachusetts were passed by the colonists (albeit narrowly). Now, it's true that Quakerism was widely persecuted both in England and the Colonies, but the reason that Pennsylvania exists is because of the persecution that came at the hands of colonists. William Penn established it so that Quakers could have a place to worship without being killed for it.

quote:
The religious freedoms come from the fallout of the tremendous intolerance that was the hallmark of England.

Incorrect. England passed the Toleration Act in 1689. Now, Rhode Island had religious freedom as a founding principle, but the idea that the American colonies were these bastions of religious freedom as a rule simply isn't true.

quote:
The point is still the same.

No, it isn't. The American tradition of religious freedom came at a cost. It was not there from the beginning. We had to learn why it was important.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
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