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Author Topic:   What does life do outside of science?
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 112 (246519)
09-26-2005 10:36 AM


And Pascal's Wager assumes that, as an incorrect theist, you (and the World) will lose little or nothing. However, this is not necessarily the case; I know that if I had lived my relatively short life thus far as even a liberal Christian, I would at the very least have:
  • Wasted a lot of time learning and thinking about totally unimportant topics ("are there clothes in Heaven?")
  • Never have been able to appreciate much of the greatest (and often most controversial) art and entertainment out there
  • Treasured this one and only life much less, instead concerning myself with an imaginary next, and taking fewer oppertunities to improve my life and anybody else's
  • Never experienced many great sleep-in dreams on Sundays

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12246
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 112 (246679)
09-27-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Silent H
09-26-2005 7:17 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
Holmes writes:

How do you know this?(That God will destroy nonbelievers) And if this is true, doesn't this suggest a rather ridiculous God? First of all it will prove nothing to those that are destroyed, and those observing the destruction already believe anyway so what's the point?

I think that the Holy Spirit is convincing me against this one. (For you nonbelievers, that would be my conscience.) I agree with you, Holmes in that it would be ridiculous to present the evidence to intelligent people in the form of hypocritical Chritians and hypothetical "scientists" who say that there was a literal Flood.

Our topic is "What does life do outside of science"? Well, we laugh, we play, we muse at sunsets together and we join together helping people out of floods, hurricanes, and misery in general.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-27-2005 06:29 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 09-26-2005 7:17 AM Silent H has not yet responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 78 of 112 (246865)
09-28-2005 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Silent H
09-26-2005 7:17 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
holmes writes:

If God is detectable, then why don't you be the scientist to show this to be true?

I previously writes:

prayer is the only way at this point.


pray if you want to detect him.
Don't you mean "they"? There is evidence over the years to support pretty much all systems of religious conviction, especially if one does not press too hard for literal interpretations.

I mean EXACTLY what I said. There is only ONE truth. I'm not speaking of religion; I'm speaking of what actually is. Some religions (not all) may be different interpretaions, translations, or explanations of the same truth. Also, I do believe the bible is literal. If it said a "dog flew," I wouldn't take it as a metaphor.
How do you know this? And if this is true, doesn't this suggest a rather ridiculous God? First of all it will prove nothing to those that are destroyed, and those observing the destruction already believe anyway so what's the point?

The point is that he's coming back to get/reward all those on his side (not religion specific}. Either you are with him or against; him no innocent bystanders. He's not coming to PROVE anything. Who's opinion does he want/need? Interfere with his will-You are destroyed.
To be honest, honesty in one's own ignorance is the best bet... if one bases faith on gambling propositions.

My faith is based on the bible and common sense (reasoning) at the same time. I only said
If creation is wrong and I die then nothing happens-I lived a good life for nothing. If scientists are wrong about God and die then they are eternal candles-Less to lose with creation even if it is wrong huh? That's the obvious choice for me hands down.

in an attempt to sway your foolish ideas before it's too late. But really it matters to God what you beleive; not me. I just enjoy an intense debate about ideas. I don't feel anyone has to believe God, but I'm one of the ones who will be hanging out with him in the end. Hope to see ya'll there. REBEL WITH A CAUSE.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 09-26-2005 7:17 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Nuggin, posted 09-28-2005 3:32 AM b b has not yet responded
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 09-28-2005 4:05 AM b b has responded
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b b
Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 79 of 112 (246866)
09-28-2005 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
09-26-2005 8:02 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
Unless you've got it backwards, and God wants people to be atheists. Seems pretty likely to me, actually. And you don't really know, do you?

Father forgive him for he know not what he is talking about. Please do not destroy the ignorant. There; I pray for you. God does not expect everyone to believe in him (hell has a lot of room),but he does want everyone to believe. It's not like he slipped up, someone saw him, and told everyone about him. If he didn't want anyone to know about him, we wouldn't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2005 8:02 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-28-2005 4:32 AM b b has not yet responded
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 80 of 112 (246869)
09-28-2005 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by b b
09-28-2005 2:28 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
The point is that he's coming back to get/reward all those on his side (not religion specific}. Either you are with him or against; him no innocent bystanders. He's not coming to PROVE anything. Who's opinion does he want/need? Interfere with his will-You are destroyed.

Come on, take a step back and re-read this. It just sounds very very silly and childish. I'm not saying you are being childish, but that this kind of statement is childish.

If God is all present, all powerful and all knowing, why does he need to come back and reward some people and punish others. If God is all love, why wouldn't he forgive those who didn't believe in him. Why wouldn't he punish those who do believe for failing to convert those that didn't?

These "my way or the highway" type statements don't sound like the word of God. They sound like the word of men in positions of power who want to exert that power and influence over others.

This is why organized religion has such a bad reputation. Clearly, whoevers been feeding you this stuff is doing so because they want influence over you, they want you to a) give them money or b) do what they tell you to do.

God would not need to use threats to get his point across


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 2:28 AM b b has not yet responded

    
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 112 (246871)
09-28-2005 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by b b
09-28-2005 2:28 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
pray if you want to detect him.

Who said I hadn't? No detection from this unit.

There is only ONE truth. I'm not speaking of religion; I'm speaking of what actually is.

Stop proselytizing for a second and remember what we were discussing, which was evidence. All religions have support found for them within the world. That is actually true.

You can call all the others mistaken, and they... unlike the creators of your precious mythology... built their religion from what was seen around them, so as to answer that issue. It would be hypocritical, but at least its an answer.

Also, I do believe the bible is literal. If it said a "dog flew," I wouldn't take it as a metaphor.

Suddenly I want to get into book publishing, well one book publishing.

The point is that he's coming back to get/reward all those on his side (not religion specific}. Either you are with him or against; him no innocent bystanders. He's not coming to PROVE anything. Who's opinion does he want/need? Interfere with his will-You are destroyed.

Hey, my first question was how you knew this. But let me address this ramble. It is inconsistent with your first post. You said there would be proof as he killed people. So I asked you about that.

Here you suggest that he's not proving anything, but simply rewarding his followers apparently by killing nonbelievers. Or maybe that's just punishment.

And yet again you set up a disturbing image of a moron for your God. If he makes everyone, doesn't he already know our opinions? More importantly though, what should he care what they are? According to you opinions can stop the will of God? How can opinions stop the will of something that is omnipotent?

Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names will never hurt me... unless I'm God?

I only said... {pascal's wager}... in an attempt to sway your foolish ideas before it's too late. But really it matters to God what you beleive; not me.

If God does care then telling me to switch for gambling reasons will simply waste my life as well as getting me toasted in the end. Thus attempting to sway me, if you believe he does care, means you are looking to hurt me instead of help me. So were you just being cruel or an idiot with poor logic skills?

but I'm one of the ones who will be hanging out with him in the end.

Sounds like a terrible time. If you have one difference of opinion you get fried, and you have to live like that for eternity. That's be pretty tough for a person that proclaims...

I just enjoy an intense debate about ideas.

Well I guess it will be intense. According to you I'll be cooked in the first seconds. That doesn't leave much debate however.

This message has been edited by holmes, 09-28-2005 04:06 AM


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 2:28 AM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 5:38 AM Silent H has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12246
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 82 of 112 (246873)
09-28-2005 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by b b
09-28-2005 2:47 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
BB, I think that you are approaching this argument from an illogical stance. God never made Hell for people, you know. He only got mad at religious zealots...never the unchurched. Am I making sense to you so far? Besides, how this message got in this quest for science is a mystery to me....perhaps you know the answer?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 2:47 AM b b has not yet responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 83 of 112 (246878)
09-28-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
09-28-2005 4:05 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
Hey, my first question was how you knew this

Is this a serious question? I think everyone here, whether they agree or not, knows how I know this.

Stop proselytizing for a second and remember what we were discussing, which was evidence. All religions have support found for them within the world. That is actually true.

You can call all the others mistaken, and they... unlike the creators of your precious mythology... built their religion from what was seen around them, so as to answer that issue. It would be hypocritical, but at least its an answer.


would you please remove all ideas of what you think I beleive from your mind. Now re-read what I wrote. I'm saying I beleive many religions may (possibility) worship the same "God," but maybe with a different name.
It is inconsistent with your first post. You said there would be proof as he killed people. So I asked you about that.

There will be proof once he's destroyed his enemies, but he will not destroy his enemy's to prove anything. It will be judgement (or punishment). How can you truly understand the complex laws of science when you can hardly understand my simple ideas. Do you jump to conclusions when reading a science book also; or do you just do it to desparetly try to discredit a working theory?
Thus attempting to sway me, if you believe he does care, means you are looking to hurt me instead of help me. So were you just being cruel or an idiot with poor logic skills?

In my faith, part of everyone's purpose is to win souls to the kingdom. sounds like "the chronicles of riddick, I know, but it is what it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 09-28-2005 4:05 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 84 of 112 (246883)
09-28-2005 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by b b
09-28-2005 5:38 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
Is this a serious question? I think everyone here, whether they agree or not, knows how I know this.

My question is serious. How do you know this?

I'm saying I beleive many religions may (possibility) worship the same "God," but maybe with a different name.

I understand that that is what you were suggesting, but that will only pertain to some, as even your wording above suggests. What about the rest?

There will be proof once he's destroyed his enemies, but he will not destroy his enemy's to prove anything.

Once again, I am at a loss as to how this achieves anything. Humans can destroy their enemies, all of them in some cases, and that effects nothing as a suggestion that they are creators nor gods. And to get into the metaphysical, satan could appear and destroy his enemies... how would that prove he was a creator or a God?

How can you truly understand the complex laws of science when you can hardly understand my simple ideas.

Okay I see how there was a difference between what you meant and what I took from it, but honestly the way you wrote about "proof" in your first reply suggested it was proof to the nonbelievers and believers alike. It suggested that was at least in part a goal.

In any case, the laws of science are generally pretty simple, though there are some complex models (especially mathematical ones). It is easy to understand them, than your so called "simple" ideas in that they are generally not conflicting with each other, and in the end can be described in a way that I can test them if I wish.

You mentioned one test, and I told you it failed. Science has an answer for that. Do you?

try to discredit a working theory?

Though not desperate, I am a skeptic, and follow the scientific method. That involves careful reserve of judgement and some level of attempt at falsification.

I am uncertain which theory you had that was working?

In my faith, part of everyone's purpose is to win souls to the kingdom. sounds like "the chronicles of riddick, I know, but it is what it is.

If by "sounds like Chronicles of Riddick" you mean it sounds like a piece of fiction and in specific a lame first installment of a much larger piece that I hope will improve as it goes on, then you would be correct.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 112 (246887)
09-28-2005 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by b b
09-28-2005 2:47 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
Father forgive him for he know not what he is talking about. Please do not destroy the ignorant. There; I pray for you.

Thnaks, but better you should pray for yourself. After all, you're the one who's facing an enternity of hellfire for disobeying God's single, obvious commandment - "Thou shallt not believe in God."

If he didn't want anyone to know about him, we wouldn't.

We don't. All we have is the fairy tales people make up about him. I don't really consider any of that "knowledge."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 2:47 AM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 10:12 PM crashfrog has responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 86 of 112 (247107)
09-28-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
09-28-2005 7:26 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
disobeying God's single, obvious commandment - "Thou shallt not believe in God.

Would you explain this idea to me? I'm curious because this is like the 3rd or 4th time you said that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 09-28-2005 7:26 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 112 (247112)
09-28-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by b b
09-28-2005 2:28 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
quote:
Also, I do believe the bible is literal. If it said a "dog flew," I wouldn't take it as a metaphor.

So how often do you drink deadly poison with no ill-effects??

When was the last time you touched someone with your hands and cured them of a disease?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by b b, posted 09-28-2005 2:28 AM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 12:40 AM nator has responded

    
b b
Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 88 of 112 (247158)
09-29-2005 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
09-28-2005 10:23 PM


Re: I don't get it at all
I wouldn't do that. There are tribes that do a lot of things of that nature such as firewalking and probably drinking various potions. I beleive if it is God's will(being that I do believe he is the creator and that his will controls everything)for one to survive the poison one will. I don't know his will so I would not chance it. My bible also tells me not to tempt God. I take that literal too. Tempt - as in purposely drinking poison

I don't know if this is the intended meaning or just an interpretation of what is, but I would not chance it being that I don't fully understand this. My ignorance here is why I would not try it; not that it does not mean what it says.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 09-28-2005 10:23 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 89 of 112 (247184)
09-29-2005 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by b b
09-29-2005 12:40 AM


I don't know his will

You did an amazing imitation of that earlier in the thread.

My bible also tells me not to tempt God.

It also says not to take God's name in vain (which does not mean swearing). It also says not to judge others. And it also suggests that one should not go about talking like you know what's in the afterlife.

You seem to pick and choose what to follow.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 12:40 AM b b has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 112 (247205)
09-29-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by b b
09-28-2005 10:12 PM


Re: I don't get it at all
Would you explain this idea to me? I'm curious because this is like the 3rd or 4th time you said that.

Isn't it obvious that, if God exists, God doesn't want us to believe it exists? That would explain the lack of intervention, the failure to provide any type of guidance or message, and the irrefutable appearance in the universe of things not being designed. It would explain the fact that, no matter what we study, we can explain it without recourse to the intervention of God. The very nature of the universe proclaims one obvious truth - either God doesn't exist, or it's absolutely determined to convince us that it doesn't. So shouldn't you take it at it's word?

I mean, if God exists, none of us really know what he wants. I have just as much basis for asserting that God wants us to be atheists as you have for asserting any particular dogma of the Christian faith, or of any faith.

That's why "Pascal's Wager" is so worthless - it assumes that you can successfully reduce the problem to two alternatives. What I'm trying to show you is that there's no way to do that; there's an infinite number of alternatives, and they're all equally supported by the evidence. And there's one conceviable alternative that turns your logic on its head, and sends the atheist to heaven and the believer to hell.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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