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Author Topic:   What is supernatural?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 138 (141732)
09-12-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-12-2004 4:41 AM


How can we declare what God can and cannot be?
From the definition of "God." If you're talking about something besides the accepted Christian God, you should probably say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-12-2004 4:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 107 of 138 (141762)
09-12-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
09-02-2004 3:39 AM


Re: "Erase, Erase, Revise, Reword...
And I say that Jesus was born supernatutrally and became part of the natural world.
Phat,
I'm thinking you mean conceived? I know it was said he was born in a manger but is there any information on his birth? I had assumed a natural vaginal delivery but I could have missed something.
Recall how Shakespeare had MacBeth feel invulnerable since "no man born of woman" could topple him, and then it turn's out the MacDuff was born by c-section.
His Spirit, living on in Holy people(Holy only due to Gods grace) is a part of the natural world.
"Spirit" remains an undefined term. It has many meanings in the area of emotional vitality and psychological manifestations as well as feelings people have about experiences they might term supernatural all the way from creepy ghost feelings to sublime mystical visions. But talking about the natural world we have physics. Each of us posting to this forum has periods of sleep and periods when we know we are awake and conscious. So there is consciousness which though little understood is a feature of our experience of this universe.
But apart from human experiences what do you mean by spirit?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 138 (141764)
09-12-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
08-08-2004 1:11 PM


Science can not be faulted for ignoring the supernatural until such time as the supernatural can be tested. Until such time science must, and rightly, ignore the supernatural.
However, that in no way means that the supernatural does not exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 08-08-2004 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 2:43 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 109 of 138 (141781)
09-12-2004 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
09-12-2004 1:59 PM


Science can not be faulted for ignoring the supernatural until such time as the supernatural can be tested.
Well, if it can't be tested, then it might as well not exist, because it has no effect on the natural world.
Likewise, if something "supernatural" has an effect on the natural world, it can be tested for. That's how we test for things, after all - their effects.

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 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 1:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 4:42 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 138 (141807)
09-12-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 2:43 PM


Well, if it can't be tested, then it might as well not exist, because it has no effect on the natural world.
But that does not necessarily hold true. The fact that something is untestable simply means that we can not test it. It says nothing about whether or not it can effect the natural world.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-12-2004 03:42 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 2:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by sidelined, posted 09-12-2004 6:18 PM jar has replied
 Message 113 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 6:38 PM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 111 of 138 (141823)
09-12-2004 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
09-12-2004 4:42 PM


jar
It says nothing about whether or not it can effect the natural world.
This statement requires us to question why an effect employed upon the natural world escapes notice by us? It still is very tenuous since we would think that in affecting the physical there must be some form of bridge with qualities of both natural and supernatural.
This enters into speculation that clarifies nothing.If we accept the bridge we can ask the further question of how does this bridge exist,indeed, at what point is it no longer physical but immaterial? On and on into realms of speculation withouta gain in understanding of the way the world works.Occam's razor does apply until such time as a proper expalanation can be deployed to show that this line of reasoning has anything other than a "god of the gaps" quality.

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 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 4:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 6:25 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 138 (141825)
09-12-2004 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by sidelined
09-12-2004 6:18 PM


Super natural is a super set, not a subset.
This statement requires us to question why an effect employed upon the natural world escapes notice by us?
The effect could be perfectly natural, for example the existence of the universe, the rules that seem to govern how thing operate. Yet the cause might have been supernatural.
As you know, I have never asked anyone to believe in the supernatural. I do believe though that the awsome effects and existence we see about us is the product of a supernatural entity, GOD.
The supernatural question is not HOW atoms hold together or the universe expand, but WHY?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by sidelined, posted 09-12-2004 6:18 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by sidelined, posted 09-12-2004 10:55 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 113 of 138 (141827)
09-12-2004 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
09-12-2004 4:42 PM


The fact that something is untestable simply means that we can not test it. It says nothing about whether or not it can effect the natural world.
But we test things by their effects on the natural world.
If you're saying it can't be tested, then you're saying it has no effect. If it has an effect, it can be tested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 4:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 6:46 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 138 (141831)
09-12-2004 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 6:38 PM


No, that is not what I'm saying. We can sense the four forces. But we cannot determine WHY they exist.
If you're saying it can't be tested, then you're saying it has no effect.
No, I am not saying that. It has an effect, but we have been unable yet to test it. There are things we cannot explain.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 6:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:18 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 115 of 138 (141843)
09-12-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
09-12-2004 6:46 PM


It has an effect, but we have been unable yet to test it.
Then it is testable.
You don't seem to draw a distinction between things we can't test yet and things we'll never be able to test, or something.
I'm talking about the state of the universe; you seem to be hung up on the state of human knowledge.
There are things we cannot explain.
That hardly has anything to do with the supernatural.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-12-2004 06:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 6:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 138 (141844)
09-12-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:18 PM


Perhaps someday we will be able to test the supernatural. But so far we have not been able to do so.
What is the problem with that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:18 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:24 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 117 of 138 (141847)
09-12-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
09-12-2004 7:20 PM


Perhaps someday we will be able to test the supernatural. But so far we have not been able to do so.
Granted. At one time, that was true of a great number of things we now recognize as basic natural forces. None of them were ever "supernatural."
What is the problem with that?
In what sense is any of what you're talking about "supernatural"? At best you've identitifed totally natural phenomenon that, as yet, we can't explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:30 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 138 (141849)
09-12-2004 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:24 PM


In what sense is any of what you're talking about "supernatural"? At best you've identitifed totally natural phenomenon that, as yet, we can't explain.
Until we can explain them, they remain supernatural. Once we can explain them they may remain supernatural.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:43 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 119 of 138 (141854)
09-12-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
09-12-2004 7:30 PM


Until we can explain them, they remain supernatural.
Gravity wasn't supernatural before we understood it as a universal force. Radioactivity wasn't supernatural. The unexplained isn't supernatural, it's unexplained.
Once we can explain them they may remain supernatural.
In what way? Once we explain them, they're simply the result of natural forces or entities. In what way would they be supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 7:46 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 138 (141856)
09-12-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by crashfrog
09-12-2004 7:43 PM


In what way? Once we explain them, they're simply the result of natural forces or entities. In what way would they be supernatural?
I don't know. Let's wait until we explain them?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2004 7:47 PM jar has replied

  
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